Was Mrs. T good for Britain?

[Bold Seagull]

30. She presided over interest rates increasing to 15%
Not true...............That was under John Major

I'm only picking on one as it jumped out at me directly, and did effect my family personally at the time. This statement of yours is factually incorrect.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/interest-rate

So from this simple bit of history, Thatcher actually presided over 2 peaks in both interest rates and unemployment. In 1980 the interest rates went above 16%, and again in 89/90 they went to 15%.

Under her entire time in office, they only once dipped below 8% for barely 3 months. The mean interest rate for her entire period in office was 12%!! This included wild and dramatic changes in very short periods of time.

 

[pork pie]

This. The Country had been brought to its knees by the unions (under both Labour and the Tories) and she took them on, destroyed them and gave Britian the platform to rebuild. She didnt destroy manufacturing, the mining industry, jobs etc - the unions had already done that. But she was hardly a loveable figure; though given the mess we were in and given her opponents were people like Scargill, it was probably just as well!

Asolutely spot on. She was the right person for that point in time. Anybody who does not agree is either selfish (as in they only cared about what they got out of it) or plain stupid. She was far from "loveable", and was certainly worthy of some "digs" for statements like "we have just become a grandmother", but she certainly turned this country around when it needed it.

Right, where is the next person like her to get us out of this shit we are in again, after another Labour Government have runied us? We need a leader, not a wet weekend like "call me Dave".

 

[Napper]

Margaret Thatcher was the most divisive and polarising politic leader of the last century. This is an incomplete list of why many of us fall on the side that does not regard her with anything other than odium…

1. She supported the retention of capital punishment
2. She destroyed the country's manufacturing industry
3. She voted against the relaxation of divorce laws
4. She abolished free milk for schoolchildren ("Margaret Thatcher, Milk Snatcher")
5. She supported more freedom for business (and look how that turned out)
6. She gained support from the National Front in the 1979 election by pandering to the fears of immigration
7. She gerrymandered local authorities by forcing through council house sales, at the same time preventing councils from spending the money they got for selling houses on building new houses (spending on social housing dropped by 67% in her premiership)
8. She was responsible for 3.6 million unemployed - the highest figure and the highest proportion of the workforce in history and three times the previous government. Massaging of the figures means that the figure was closer to 5 million
9. She ignored intelligence about Argentinian preparations for the invasion of the Falkland Islands and scrapped the only Royal Navy presence in the islands
10. The poll tax
11. She presided over the closure of 150 coal mines; we are now crippled by the cost of energy, having to import expensive coal from abroad
12. She compared her "fight" against the miners to the Falklands War
13. She privatised state monopolies and created the corporate greed culture that we've been railing against for the last 5 years
14. She introduced the gradual privatisation of the NHS
15. She introduced financial deregulation in a way that turned city institutions into avaricious money pits
16. She pioneered the unfailing adoration and unquestioning support of the USA
17. She allowed the US to place nuclear missiles on UK soil, under US control
18. Section 28
19. She opposed anti-apartheid sanctions against South Africa and described Nelson Mandela as "that grubby little terrorist"
20. She support the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia and sent the SAS to train their soldiers
21. She allowed the US to bomb Libya in 1986, against the wishes of more than 2/3 of the population
22. She opposed the reunification of Germany
23. She invented Quangos
24. She increased VAT from 8% to 17.5%
25. She had the lowest approval rating of any post-war Prime Minister
26. Her post-PM job? Consultant to Philip Morris tobacco at $250,000 a year, plus $50,000 per speech
27. The Al Yamamah contract
28. She opposed the indictment of Chile's General Pinochet
29. Social unrest under her leadership was higher than at any time since the General Strike
30. She presided over interest rates increasing to 15%
31. BSE
32. She presided over 2 million manufacturing job losses in the 79-81 recession
33. She opposed the inclusion of Eire in the Northern Ireland peace process
34. She supported sanctions-busting arms deals with South Africa
35. Cecil Parkinson, Alan Clark, David Mellor, Jeffrey Archer, Jonathan Aitkin
36. Crime rates doubled under Thatcher
37. Black Wednesday – Britain withdraws from the ERM and the pound is devalued. Cost to Britain - £3.5 billion; profit for George Soros - £1 billion
38. Poverty doubled while she opposed a minimum wage
39. She privatised public services, claiming at the time it would increase public ownership. Most are now owned either by foreign governments (EDF) or major investment houses. The profits don’t now accrue to the taxpayer, but to foreign or institutional shareholders.
40. She cut 75% of funding to museums, galleries and other sources of education
41. In the Thatcher years the top 10% of earners received almost 50% of the tax remissions
42. 21.9% inflation

Most people recognise the massive changes that evolved during the 1980s. However, to ascribe the positive changes to one person, as though they never would have happened in her absence, is laughable.

and still a few pipe out about "how strong she was. Absolutely laughable.

Frustating how the media is so biased as well

 

[pork pie]

I'm only picking on one as it jumped out at me directly, and did effect my family personally at the time. This statement of yours is factually incorrect.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/interest-rate

So from this simple bit of history, Thatcher actually presided over 2 peaks in both interest rates and unemployment. In 1980 the interest rates went above 16%, and again in 89/90 they went to 15%.

Under her entire time in office, they only once dipped below 8% for barely 3 months. The mean interest rate for her entire period in office was 12%!! This included wild and dramatic changes in very short periods of time.

So, what were the Real Interest Rates at the time (interest rates less inflation). Given we all got massive rises on a regular basis, the interest rate percentage was influenced by the need for it to be greater than the rampant inflation of the time.

 

[abc]

I'm only picking on one as it jumped out at me directly, and did effect my family personally at the time. This statement of yours is factually incorrect.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/interest-rate

So from this simple bit of history, Thatcher actually presided over 2 peaks in both interest rates and unemployment. In 1980 the interest rates went above 16%, and again in 89/90 they went to 15%.

Under her entire time in office, they only once dipped below 8% for barely 3 months. The mean interest rate for her entire period in office was 12%!! This included wild and dramatic changes in very short periods of time.

Makes you appreciate George Osbourne doesn't it? Interests rates consistently at 0.5%. Too many people forget just how high interest rates, inflation and unemployment was under both The Tories and labour. Ed Balls needs a history lesson in particular

 

[GT49er]

After hearing her famous " Where there is discord let us bring harmony etc. " speech again, I had forgotten how quickly SHE forgot the essence of that quote when in power. There was only her way or the highway despite how much anger and resentment people had at her divisive policies. When the going got tough she would wrap herself up in the Union flag and say " I'm battling for Britain " When her tenure seemed it might be over, she flogged off every state interest she could for a tax cut bribe in order to stay in power.
Even her own party eventually realised the harm she had done to the nation and dumped her, she famously said "They’ve got the usual Socialist disease — they’ve run out of other people’s money." However, her "money" was the infrastructure of everyone in the nation, the famous " free market economy " has been lapped up by the foreign shareholders who now run for profit and own a large chunk of our once great nation.

She died in luxury in The Ritz, while many of us live in poverty. Food Banks are are multiplying and the disabled have their benefits cut or withdrawn. We have hardly any manufacturing industry left, we just make coffee's in franchises as minimum wage slaves. The average wage in the UK is supposed to be £26,600, I know no-one who earns that. That is her legacy.

Well said - all this and more. I could go on and on, but I expect many others have already done that. My daughter came round to take me for a celebratory pint last night - and we DANCED IN THE STREET!

 

[Bold Seagull]

So, what were the Real Interest Rates at the time (interest rates less inflation). Given we all got massive rises on a regular basis, the interest rate percentage was influenced by the need for it to be greater than the rampant inflation of the time.

Rampant inflation, now we really are talking the language of a Conservative government circa 1970 onward!

 

[pork pie]

Makes you appreciate George Osbourne doesn't it? Interests rates consistently at 0.5%. Too many people forget just how high interest rates, inflation and unemployment was under both The Tories and labour. Ed Balls needs a history lesson in particular

Here we will not agree.

Interest rates are too low at 0.5%. Savers need a fair return, and borrowers (other than the Government and big businesses) can never get anywhere near that low in the real world. The only ones benefiting are the banks as they seek to re-build their Balance Sheets at our expense - again. It grates me how few of the bankers lost their jobs, when their businesses failed, yet they are so quick to send receivers into their borrowers' businesses when they have the slightest problems. Smug gits are creaming the bonuses again as well.

 

[cirC]

Given what had happened during the 74/79 labour governments time in office Thatcher was what the country needed.
For all the young socialist folk.....I give you

Harold Wilson speech (19Nov1967) - YouTube


Yup who inherited a dire economic problem from the tories who had had the unions and the 3 day week problem.
Go back further and the tories won the 1970 election because Wilson had ruined the economy.
To paraphrase Churchill......
Never have so many had to pick up the bills from so few..labour politicians

 

[Bold Seagull]

Makes you appreciate George Osbourne doesn't it? Interests rates consistently at 0.5%. Too many people forget just how high interest rates, inflation and unemployment was under both The Tories and labour. Ed Balls needs a history lesson in particular

Perhaps you could attend the lesson together?

 

[pork pie]

Rampant inflation, now we really are talking the language of a Conservative government circa 1970 onward!

Yes, inflation was high, which is why interest rates were high as well. Don't you understand the correlation?

Nobody is suggesting that any Government is perfect. Inflation is the scurge of any modern economy if it gets out of control. Having said that, negative inflation as experienced in Japan is also very damaging.

Who were the ones driving up inflation? Yep, the unions with their wage demands.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Here we will not agree.

Interest rates are too low at 0.5%. Savers need a fair return, and borrowers (other than the Government and big businesses) can never get anywhere near that low in the real world. The only ones benefiting are the banks as they seek to re-build their Balance Sheets at our expense - again. It grates me how few of the bankers lost their jobs, when their businesses failed, yet they are so quick to send receivers into their borrowers' businesses when they have the slightest problems. Smug gits are creaming the bonuses again as well.

But here we agree, strange old thread...

 

[somerset]

It grates me how few of the bankers lost their jobs, when their businesses failed, ...

....are you that misinformed that you actually believe that,??.... in LBG alone 35000 heads have rolled since 2008, including most of the top end of HBOS and C&G......quote correctly please.

 

[pork pie]

But here we agree, strange old thread...

I do not simply accept the policies of any Government. I have my own views on things. It is a pity that most people appear to be devoid of original thought when they look at politics I will say however, that it is a great shame that we do not have a PM with the vision that Mrs Thatcher had. At this moment in time, I happen to believe that we would be best served by a coalition government, of all parties to get us out of this mess we are in.

It drives me mad to see "New" Labour in denial over the mess they have created, and the damaging party politics being played out when we are in such danger of ruining this country for our children and generations to come. If it is not too late already.

 

[abc]

Here we will not agree.

Interest rates are too low at 0.5%. Savers need a fair return, and borrowers (other than the Government and big businesses) can never get anywhere near that low in the real world. The only ones benefiting are the banks as they seek to re-build their Balance Sheets at our expense - again. It grates me how few of the bankers lost their jobs, when their businesses failed, yet they are so quick to send receivers into their borrowers' businesses when they have the slightest problems. Smug gits are creaming the bonuses again as well.

Take your point though I'm not sure interest rates make a big difference to the banks whether they are high or low - they always come out smiling. They will charge the same large 'margin over base' whatever, which means if base rates are higher the amount the customer pays the bank is similarly higher.

I started out running a small business when interest rates hit 15% and it very nearly crippled us. To be bluntnit was terrifying. The current low interest rates enables small businesses (not just big businesses) to borrow and reinvest. Its probably the key reason why the private sector is still creating jobs.

I also shudder to think what would happen if mortgage rates went up now when most households are already struggling to pay their bills.

However, in the bigger picture I am sure you are right. A base rate that enables both savers and mortgage holders/borrowers to co exist must make sense. But the banks will always thrive.

 

[pork pie]

....are you that misinformed that you actually believe that,??.... in LBG alone 35000 heads have rolled since 2008, including most of the top end of HBOS and C&G......quote correctly please.

Wow, are you for real? That is only a very small number given they are a major basket case. How many were real, and how many were simply on paper, with people being shuffled about, or recruitment being stopped? How many were actually as a result of the failure, and how many as a result of business process improvements/rationalisations in that time?

Were any given their P45s by receivers, as the bankers so readily do to SMEs?

 

[Bold Seagull]

I do not simply accept the policies of any Government. I have my own views on things. It is a pity that most people appear to be devoid of original thought when they look at politics I will say however, that it is a great shame that we do not have a PM with the vision that Mrs Thatcher had. At this moment in time, I happen to believe that we would be best served by a coalition government, of all parties to get us out of this mess we are in.

It drives me mad to see "New" Labour in denial over the mess they have created, and the damaging party politics being played out when we are in such danger of ruining this country for our children and generations to come. If it is not too late already.

Well no, neither have I mentioned any party politics in relation to answering simple misrepresented facts about certain aspects of her PMship. In fact you yourself only have an opinion on the causes of inflation, unemployment, interest rates and the general policies that handled the economy at that time. It is of course far more complicated than that, and while you may have enjoyed 'massive raises' during that period, a prosperous time no doubt for many, it was also a time of great hardship, record unemployment, record levels of repossessions, crippling interest rates etc. We can go on all day about the causes, however you seem unable to accept the fact that a great many people did not agree, or believe she was good for this country. You might not believe it, but it doesn't make anyone else stupid, selfish or partisan.

 

[blue2]

How old are you?

The unions needed to be smashed. They had become controlled by communists, had become very powerfull, and had destroyed the social structure of our country. There was no reasoning with them. Anyone who was stupid enough to fall under their influence deserved all they got.

I do not disagree with your point that the Unions had become a powerful force and to poweful, how ever the balance shifted far to much the other way and remains so to this day the working person has very little input management hold all the power

My point though was more about how the shift was archived could it have been archived with less hardship to the many millions I think it could have

I do not expect an answer form you pork pie as I expect its now way past your bed time

 

[Diego Napier]

Interesting, please expand, I'm not quite sure how Thatcher could stop you working tbh. I am quite good mates with a miner from Doncaster who had spent 30 years down the mines, he retrained as an electrician and plumber and prospered after a couple of tough years and now regrets how long he actually spent down the mines.

That puts me in mind of when I was young and used to argue with my Mum & Dad about the iniquity Thatcher visited on the mining villages. My Dad always retorted that an ex-miner who drank in his pub reckoned that the miners were overpaid, as though the opinion of one who got out before the closures could possibly represent the whole. Similarly, many miners did not have the wherewithall to retrain into different jobs, many were too old and many families did not have the social mobility to find new opportunities. Good luck to your mate but he certainly wasn't a typical representative of those smashed communities.

 

[Fitzcarraldo]

Ok Let me tell you a story:
Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to £100...
If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this...

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay £1.
The sixth would pay £3.
The seventh would pay £7..
The eighth would pay £12.
The ninth would pay £18.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay £59.

So, that's what they decided to do..

The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve ball.

"Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by £20". Drinks for the ten men would now cost just £80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes.

So the first four men were unaffected.

They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men?
The paying customers?

How could they divide the £20 windfall so that everyone would get his fair share?

They realised that £20 divided by six is £3.33. But if they
subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer.

So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by a higher percentage the poorer he was, to follow the principle of the tax system they had been using, and he proceeded to work out the amounts he suggested that each should now pay.

And so the fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% saving).

The sixth now paid £2 instead of £3 (33% saving).

The seventh now paid £5 instead of £7 (28% saving).
The eighth now paid £9 instead of £12 (25% saving).

The ninth now paid £14 instead of £18 (22% saving).

The tenth now paid £49 instead of £59 (16% saving).

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But, once outside the bar, the men began to compare their savings.

"I only got a pound out of the £20 saving," declared the sixth man.

He pointed to the tenth man,"but he got £10!"

"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a pound too. It's unfair that he got ten times more benefit than me!"

"That's true!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get £10 back, when I got only £2? The wealthy get all the breaks!"

"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison, "we didn't get anything at all. This new tax system exploits the poor!"

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had their beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

And that, boys and girls, journalists and government ministers, is how our tax system works.

The people who already pay the highest taxes will naturally get the most benefit from a tax reduction.

Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore.

In fact, they might start drinking overseas, where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

Whilst this is a lovely story, on a human level do you honestly believe it's point to be true?

Do you honestly believe that tens, or hundreds, of thousands of highly paid workers are just going to up-sticks and move to a far flung tax haven away from their friends and family, away from the places that they grew up, away from the cultural wealth of the Great Britain, away from where their children go to school, away from where they are settled, comfortable and know they are safe and well protected, away from where they no doubt hold a fair amount of investments - all for the sake of a few thousands of pounds in tax? I don't.