Was it worth the sacrifice.

[cunning fergus]

History shows us what one generation is intolerant of the next will tolerate and the following will embrace. Civil rights is a prime example of this. Statistically young people are far more likely to be against forms of prejudice such as racism, sexism and homophobia. Of course young people are prone to be more passionate and pursue more active forms of political and religious activism resulting in both positive and negative effects, such as your rioting scenario.



Of course it's absurd, your point regarding veterans probably being UKIP supporters is based on nothing but conjecture. The recent EU turnout was 34% of the electorate with UKIP netting 4,376,635 ( 27.5%) of the vote. If we say that UKIP's 60+ demographic counts for a generous 60% of that number then the over 60 vote would account for 700,261 votes. Now according to the office of national statistics the current estimate is that 13,262,256 people are over 60 in the UK. So putting that together that would suggest 5.3% of people over 60, in the entire UK, voted UKIP. Hardly a statistic that backs up your hypothesis suggesting a majority of support amongst veterans would go in UKIP’s favour. And of course we also mustn’t forget that statistics do not reflect the individual.




I never said all UKIP voters were intolerant fascists. I did however point out that the tactics employed by UKIP AND the BNP to gain votes is remarkably similar to the way MANY right wing governments/ politicians dehumanise minorities and sew discontent amongst the public. I see those similarities in tactics and the intolerance within these parties and I question what those who fought and died might have to say considering they gave their lives fighting against those with similar views.



I’m sure that many people did fight out of a sense of duty and patriotism but having lost 8 million men only two decades previously the British people would need far more than a sense of duty to be convinced to take up arms again so shortly after losing an entire generation. Regardless of what individual motives were that still doesn't change the fact that that they fought against all of the things I mentioned in my previous post.

I don't why you are continuing to flog this dead horse, the polling facts that currently exist represent that UKIP is disproportionately more popular amongst white men over 60, and even more so above 80..........to be clear that is two and a half times more popular than any other political party.

To suggest as you do that the non voting veterans/senior citizens would not largely share the same type of generational outlook as their voting peers is absolutely ridiculous. So stop it.

You don't need to say UKIP are intolerant fascists because your contempt for their voters is obvious from your first post in this thread, yet in your naivety you neglect to accept that those old white men over 80 (the vast majority of which will have served in WW2) who are voting for UKIP understand fascism in a way you never will, regardless of what you are learning at school. But you know best eh?

That's because in your youthful progressive world you want to believe that those fighting in WW2 were fighting AGAINST prejudice in all its forms, yet the reality was that generation would not have known of societal structures like multiculturalism because they did not exist. Instead they fought FOR their country, with a belief in the superiority of its dreary mono culture; an attitude today that would no doubt make your yoghurt knitting toes curl..........just like it did David Miliband's Dad Adolf when he arrived in England in 1940 (refer to his diary entry).

As for the effect of WW1 you are over playing the sentiment, death did not scare people back then like it does today. For all of the doom laden poets there were also plenty of others who returned back from WW1 well fed and having had a great adventure out in France or wherever quite happily killing Jonny foreigner; happy that was till they returned home got a cold and died in a global pandemic much more deadly than the proceeding war.

As for losses the British Army was only about 8m throughout WW1 and they didn't all die; you should take it up with your history teacher on Monday.

http://www.1914-1918.net/faq.htm

 

[Creaky]

I don't why you are continuing to flog this dead horse, the polling facts that currently exist represent that UKIP is disproportionately more popular amongst white men over 60, and even more so above 80..........to be clear that is two and a half times more popular than any other political party.

Where are these 'polling facts' - can't seem to find them.

 

[Diego Napier]

I think you are young and naive, I would argue in society “people” are far more politically extreme (and intolerant of others) in their youth than they are in their older mellowing years. The vast majority of political and religous violence today (and historically) is largely driven by young, naive idealists. Show me the rioting geriatrics being assuaged by their peace loving younger peers and I may concede defeat on this point.

As I don't believe you are either young or naive enough (or sufficiently charmed by your own rhetoric?) to believe that the real brokers of power and wealth show their hands publicly then you know this sentence is a non sequitur.

 

[midnight_rendezvous]

I don't why you are continuing to flog this dead horse, the polling facts that currently exist represent that UKIP is disproportionately more popular amongst white men over 60, and even more so above 80..........to be clear that is two and a half times more popular than any other political party.

To suggest as you do that the non voting veterans/senior citizens would not largely share the same type of generational outlook as their voting peers is absolutely ridiculous. So stop it.

You don't need to say UKIP are intolerant fascists because your contempt for their voters is obvious from your first post in this thread, yet in your naivety you neglect to accept that those old white men over 80 (the vast majority of which will have served in WW2) who are voting for UKIP understand fascism in a way you never will, regardless of what you are learning at school. But you know best eh?

That's because in your youthful progressive world you want to believe that those fighting in WW2 were fighting AGAINST prejudice in all its forms, yet the reality was that generation would not have known of societal structures like multiculturalism because they did not exist. Instead they fought FOR their country, with a belief in the superiority of its dreary mono culture; an attitude today that would no doubt make your yoghurt knitting toes curl..........just like it did David Miliband's Dad Adolf when he arrived in England in 1940 (refer to his diary entry).

As for the effect of WW1 you are over playing the sentiment, death did not scare people back then like it does today. For all of the doom laden poets there were also plenty of others who returned back from WW1 well fed and having had a great adventure out in France or wherever quite happily killing Jonny foreigner; happy that was till they returned home got a cold and died in a global pandemic much more deadly than the proceeding war.

As for losses the British Army was only about 8m throughout WW1 and they didn't all die; you should take it up with your history teacher on Monday.

http://www.1914-1918.net/faq.htm

Wow you really are a stubborn old man. I don't see the point in talking to someone who at first attempts to use maths to try and prove a point and then flat out denies something when I mathematically prove the exact opposite. So you tell yourself whatever you need to tell yourself to help you sleep at night. Oh and by the way I AM a teacher you condescending arse.

 

[Surrey_Albion]

If the men & women who fought the two world wars could look down on the UK now 70 years on would they be proud of what they gave they're lives for?


England's standing as a respected leading nation has disintegrated and were not longer leaders in the field for technical advances and pioneering developments.


We no longer have a nation with a good work ethic and breed those who think world owes a living and want to do nothing for there fellow man or even improve themselves.



Customers no longer regard "made in Britain" as sign of quality.
That accolade now go's to Germany ironically.


If there was another world war would multicultural Britons all bear arms with a bulldog spirit and stand alongside each other to protect our shores? I very much doubt it.


What went wrong for us? Other nations, supposedly 3rd world are advancing far faster then we have,
Is it because we have made life to cushy for ourselves with social housing, NHS benefit system ect


I believe if they could see us now they would wonder why they gave the're lives so we could live in a free world, they would be disgusted with us.

I agree England has nothing to be proud of anymore. We are slowely becoming media controlled americans with no soul you just need to look at our tabliods or tv like towie and bb to see what a bunch of ****s the English have become. Also a spineless country that does t stick up for its rights perfect example was the petrol prices "we will all go on strike and protest if it gets near to a pound" few years later at £1.38 we just suck it up. Billions made by councils with parking fines yet council tax still going up, we are ripped off a d dont do anything about they bave even fked up pub a d football culture. Edit:I have no issues with other cultures in this country infact if there is anything to be proud of it woukd be the multi culture and therefore I do not and will not ever vote for the racist, sexiest over inflated ego wankers that are calked ukip!

 

[Eeyore]

Nations, borders, all man made concepts anyway. As regards allegiance to the national flag, that is conditioning-nothing less. If this was 'Socle Du Nord Parler' the talk would equally be of the greatness of France, and corrosion of republican values.

There is much about these shores that makes me very proud, and relieved, to be English. But the need for the country to somehow be noticed, to fly its flag at very opportunity, and to puff out the chest of superiority, I find that a bit nauseous. And I also find it enforcing a constricted outlook on life.

 

[cunning fergus]

Wow you really are a stubborn old man. I don't see the point in talking to someone who at first attempts to use maths to try and prove a point and then flat out denies something when I mathematically prove the exact opposite. So you tell yourself whatever you need to tell yourself to help you sleep at night. Oh and by the way I AM a teacher you condescending arse.

Maths? I attached polling data.........from that point it is a simple interpretation of the data.

Remember it was you who said in post 119 that it was a widely recognised fact that the "older we become the less tolerant we become". If you are right then the polling data bears this out, as UKIP supporters (that you despise) are overwhelmingly older in comparison to voters of other parties.

That age group would mean it must include veterans of WW2.........and ignoring the non voters of that generation it would have meant that there would have been more UKIP voters on the beaches of Normandy than from other political party.

It seems to me you want to have your cake and eat it; either continue to hate UKIP voters, including those that fought against fascism or come to terms with the fact that UKIP is supported disproportionately by a generation that know more about fascism than you do.

A teacher you may be, evidently not in history.

 

[cunning fergus]

As I don't believe you are either young or naive enough (or sufficiently charmed by your own rhetoric?) to believe that the real brokers of power and wealth show their hands publicly then you know this sentence is a non sequitur.

I would argue its hyperbole............makes a discussion more entertaining.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Britain has an enormous amount to be proud of.

Our rich cultural, ethnic diversity, our welcoming inclusive nature, our love of sport from grass roots through to filling stadiums for any sporting event. Our design, style and intellectual property is sold throughout the world, our architects, engineers, our expertise sort after. Our technical and engineering capabilities at the forefront of design. Our ability to look beyond our borders to consider our position in a global perspective, not just a narrow inward looking view. A admirable sense of self depreciation, irony, humour. Our embracing of all cultural references, theatre, production, music, art, literature. We attract people to be here, not just economically, because we're a great place to be, a thriving island full of ideas, opportunity, creativity, skills and excellence.

Please don't let the press drive the positives from view. You need to look around and appreciate how good we really are at somethings. It's not perfect, but there is lots to be excited about and proud of.

 

[cunning fergus]

Britain has an enormous amount to be proud of.

Our rich cultural, ethnic diversity, our welcoming inclusive nature, our love of sport from grass roots through to filling stadiums for any sporting event. Our design, style and intellectual property is sold throughout the world, our architects, engineers, our expertise sort after. Our technical and engineering capabilities at the forefront of design. Our ability to look beyond our borders to consider our position in a global perspective, not just a narrow inward looking view. A admirable sense of self depreciation, irony, humour. Our embracing of all cultural references, theatre, production, music, art, literature. We attract people to be here, not just economically, because we're a great place to be, a thriving island full of ideas, opportunity, creativity, skills and excellence.

Please don't let the press drive the positives from view. You need to look around and appreciate how good we really are at somethings. It's not perfect, but there is lots to be excited about and proud of.

Your right........we need to be proud of FGM, forced marriages, the imposition of religiously slaughtered meat, religious intolerance, misogyny, cultural criminality and best of all welcoming back our brave lads who are involved in the ongoing violence in the Middle East.

Forget the costs that managing these issues put on the taxpayer or how they create cultural divides let's focus on the positives.

After all it's what those lads who died in the WW2 would have wanted.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Your right........we need to be proud of FGM, forced marriages, the imposition of religiously slaughtered meat, religious intolerance, misogyny, cultural criminality and best of all welcoming back our brave lads who are involved in the ongoing violence in the Middle East.

Forget the costs that managing these issues put on the taxpayer or how they create cultural divides let's focus on the positives.

After all it's what those lads who died in the WW2 would have wanted.

Wow, and you just mentioned hyperbole to someone else!

 

[Creaky]

Maths? I attached polling data.........from that point it is a simple interpretation of the data.

I agree BUT there is interpretation and fantasy.

For a start the polling data only splits voters into 5 age groups - the eldest being 60+. Any assumptions based on that figure as to how many of those were older than 86, (i.e. possibly fought in WWII), are just that, assumptions.

Again taking the polling data you linked to - 48% of those who intended to vote for UKIP were 60 or older, compared to 35% for the conservatives and 25% for Labour. The way you have presented and interpreted that figure is that if 100% of all UKIP voters were over 60 then those over 60 were more likely to vote for UKIP - patent nonsense of course.

Directly from the polling figures you linked to the number of people over 60 sampled who intended to vote for each party were:- Conservative 2490, Labour 2402, UKIP 971.

So if you want to play percentages then from your own quoted figures, the voting intentions of those aged 60+ were split between Conservative, Labour and UKIP as follows.

Conservative 42.5%
Labour 41%
UKIP 16.5%

Suddenly your argument based on the figures you presented is not quite so sound!

 

[Diego Napier]

I would argue its hyperbole............makes a discussion more entertaining.

Hahaha; I'll go along with hyperbole, falling fractionally short of bombast!

 

[User removed 4]

Your right........we need to be proud of FGM, forced marriages, the imposition of religiously slaughtered meat, religious intolerance, misogyny, cultural criminality and best of all welcoming back our brave lads who are involved in the ongoing violence in the Middle East.

Forget the costs that managing these issues put on the taxpayer or how they create cultural divides let's focus on the positives.

After all it's what those lads who died in the WW2 would have wanted.

Spot on, as usual.

 

[cunning fergus]

I agree BUT there is interpretation and fantasy.

For a start the polling data only splits voters into 5 age groups - the eldest being 60+. Any assumptions based on that figure as to how many of those were older than 86, (i.e. possibly fought in WWII), are just that, assumptions.

Again taking the polling data you linked to - 48% of those who intended to vote for UKIP were 60 or older, compared to 35% for the conservatives and 25% for Labour. The way you have presented and interpreted that figure is that if 100% of all UKIP voters were over 60 then those over 60 were more likely to vote for UKIP - patent nonsense of course.

Directly from the polling figures you linked to the number of people over 60 sampled who intended to vote for each party were:- Conservative 2490, Labour 2402, UKIP 971.

So if you want to play percentages then from your own quoted figures, the voting intentions of those aged 60+ were split between Conservative, Labour and UKIP as follows.

Conservative 42.5%
Labour 41%
UKIP 16.5%

Suddenly your argument based on the figures you presented is not quite so sound!

You agree but..........?

The YouGov poling is taken from different polls about "voting intentions" which covered a sample of 30,000 people. So the largest analysis that has yet taken place.

You can interpret from the polls as you want, however the FACT remains that UKIP are disproportionately more popular with the older electorate..........and in the euro election the received more votes than any other political party.............QED.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/may/26/ukip-european-elections-political-earthquake

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jun/24/labour-ukip-appeal-to-angry-white-voters

You can carry on with your interpretational contortions spinning out bollocks like some shithouse Rumpelstiltskin but the polls and electoral result means that there are plenty of UKIP supporters amongst our WW2 veterans.

You just need to get over it.

 

[Creaky]

You agree but..........?

The YouGov poling is taken from different polls about "voting intentions" which covered a sample of 30,000 people. So the largest analysis that has yet taken place.

You can interpret from the polls as you want, however the FACT remains that UKIP are disproportionately more popular with the older electorate..........and in the euro election the received more votes than any other political party.............QED.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/may/26/ukip-european-elections-political-earthquake

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jun/24/labour-ukip-appeal-to-angry-white-voters

You can carry on with your interpretational contortions spinning out bollocks like some shithouse Rumpelstiltskin but the polls and electoral result means that there are plenty of UKIP supporters amongst our WW2 veterans.

You just need to get over it.

However you dress it up fewer people over 60 who showed an intention to vote chose UKIP as their favoured party than didn't.

Percentage wise I agree "UKIP are disproportionately more popular with the older electorate". BUT if UKIP had only gained 10 votes and they were all over 60 100% of their voters would be over 60 and you could claim they were disproportionately more popular with the over 60s. Percentages mean nothing in the way you are trying to use them, it is numbers that count and you haven't shown that more voters over 86, (those who could have fought in WWII), have voted for UKIP than haven't.

In any case is it anything to be proud of that UKIP are disproportionately less attractive to the working population.

 

[cunning fergus]

However you dress it up fewer people over 60 who showed an intention to vote chose UKIP as their favoured party than didn't.

Percentage wise I agree "UKIP are disproportionately more popular with the older electorate". BUT if UKIP had only gained 10 votes and they were all over 60 100% of their voters would be over 60 and you could claim they were disproportionately more popular with the over 60s. Percentages mean nothing in the way you are trying to use them, it is numbers that count and you haven't shown that more voters over 86, (those who could have fought in WWII), have voted for UKIP than haven't.

In any case is it anything to be proud of that UKIP are disproportionately less attractive to the working population.

Creaky, the point I am making is that UKIP supporters will include those that fought fascism in WW2, and that would be a disproportionate majority compared to other voters of other parties.

The evidence based in polling is overwhelming.

The Guardian accept that as a fact as do the Labour Party...........it's not alchemy.

I make the point not because I am a swivel eyed fruitcake but because there needs to be balance in these discussions. If you want to discredit UKIP supporters, that's fine, but then have the balls to accept you are castigating many of those that fought against fascism.

You know I am right, stop wriggling.

 

[Creaky]

Creaky, the point I am making is that UKIP supporters will include those that fought fascism in WW2, and that would be a disproportionate majority compared to other voters of other parties.

The evidence based in polling is overwhelming.

The Guardian accept that as a fact as do the Labour Party...........it's not alchemy.

I make the point not because I am a swivel eyed fruitcake but because there needs to be balance in these discussions. If you want to discredit UKIP supporters, that's fine, but then have the balls to accept you are castigating many of those that fought against fascism.

You know I am right, stop wriggling.

Both the Guardian and the Labour Party accept that a greater percentage of UKIP voters are over 60 than the percentage of any other single party. What I have not seen accepted by either, (as it's simply not true), is that the majority of the over 60s voted for UKIP.

Of course if I criticise UKIP voters then I will be criticising some WWII veterans in exactly the same way as if I criticised the voters of any other party. I'm not sure I see your point unless you are still trying to claim that the majority of veterans voted for UKIP.

 

[cunning fergus]

Both the Guardian and the Labour Party accept that a greater percentage of UKIP voters are over 60 than the percentage of any other single party. What I have not seen accepted by either, (as it's simply not true), is that the majority of the over 60s voted for UKIP.

Of course if I criticise UKIP voters then I will be criticising some WWII veterans in exactly the same way as if I criticised the voters of any other party. I'm not sure I see your point unless you are still trying to claim that the majority of veterans voted for UKIP.

I am not making the argument that the majority do, no one knows whether that is true or not, however the polling suggest a significant proportion vote UKIP, ergo a significant proportion would be ww2 veterans (see my first post on thread).

As for what Labour (in particular) understand, I think the analysis from the euro elections in places like Rotherham proved is that they are vulnerable to discontented labour voter, especially pensioners. As quoted from the Guardian........

"Data from the latest British Election Study shows us that the voters who left Labour for Ukip were older, poorly educated white pensioners who hold a very different outlook from Labour MPs or think tankers."

 

[MarioOrlandi]

I am not making the argument that the majority do, no one knows whether that is true or not, however the polling suggest a significant proportion vote UKIP, ergo a significant proportion would be ww2 veterans (see my first post on thread).

As for what Labour (in particular) understand, I think the analysis from the euro elections in places like Rotherham proved is that they are vulnerable to discontented labour voter, especially pensioners. As quoted from the Guardian........

"Data from the latest British Election Study shows us that the voters who left Labour for Ukip were older, poorly educated white pensioners who hold a very different outlook from Labour MPs or think tankers."

Poorly educated Prior to the early 80's when calculators were allowed to be used in a maths or science exam the only form of calculator in use was called a brain with the help of logarithmic tables. (If you know what they are) They also knew their times tables 2 to 12 before they were 9yrs old while their written and spoken English would put a modern day "educated graduate" to shame. So please tell your parents that they are "poorly educated"!!!!