Vote Tory for a..umm...err..we sort of might have a sort of referendum on Europe.

[HovaGirl]

or because you see them as "insular and self-righteous"?
Slight case of pot, kettle and black, methinks.

(I read the FT, by the way, so not in the least partisan about the Guardian)

We are discussing newspapers, and if some people can criticise The Mail, in this thread, then I feel it valid to make a comment about a newspaper I don't like. What I don't do, is criticise The Guardian in every thread, like those who castigate the Mail, because they don't really understand the issues being discussed, so disguise it by trying to sound clever in dissing the Mail.

 

[HovaGirl]

Come on. You cannot contrast the Mail and The Guardian in this way. The Mail journalism is very ill-informed and sensationalist. You might not agree with the politics of The Guardian but its journalism, albeit with a socialist spin, is reasonably sound. Similarly I don't criticise the Telegraph; lousy politics but reasonably sound journalism.

If you don't actually read the mail, but rely on the appalling Mail web site to make your judgements, then you don't know how good or bad the Mail's journalism actually is. One of their investigative reporters learned the ropes at the Argus. He was good then and he's still good now.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

The Mail...One of their investigative reporters learned the ropes at the Argus.

This is all you probably need to know about the paper.

 

[HovaGirl]

This is all you probably need to know about the paper.

Come on. Almost all journalists start out on local newspapers. How blinkered, you are.

 

[HovaGirl]

The estimated number of non-British citizens immigrating long-term to the UK in the year to March 2012 was 462,000, similar to the estimate of 486,000 for the year to March 2011. The estimated number of non-British citizens emigrating long-term from the UK was 202,000, similar to the estimate of 194,000 in the year to March 2011. (Figure 2.12)

Final LTIM estimates for 2011 indicate that 488,000 non-British citizens immigrated long-term to the UK in 2011, compared to 498,000 for 2010. Emigration is estimated to have remained constant, with 202,000 non-British citizens departing in 2011 compared with 203,000 for 2010.
From ONS

So not MILLIONS but 400k also its worth noting that 151,000 Brits EMMIGRATED for work in the EU. The thing you fail to see is that we are ALL European and stronger as a whole rather than apart.

There are 30 million jobs in the UK of those 3.8 million are a direct result of our membership of the EU

FWIW I do think immigration is out of control but I also belive that as a modern european country we should embrace the EU and be in the heart of it rather than whining on the edge looking back 50 years.

I know your a Tory to the bone and worship Thatcher but Cameron is playing a very dangerous game that is going to bite all of us in the arse

PS I read the Times as my paper of choice

400,000+ per year or so adds up to several million during the past decade or so.

You comment about 10% of jobs in Britain "are as a direct result of our membership of the EU" is very telling. Therein lies the problem. Either those jobs are genuine jobs in multi-national companies, or they are self-serving jobs designed to keep us in the EU. Non-jobs for people who don't serve a customer or a community, but work simply to keep their own jobs going.

Mrs Thatcher, like all our politicians, had her hands tied behind her back, regarding Europe. However, she was a Euro-skeptic and lost her job because of it.

 

[The Spanish]

the thing is about the Mail rubbish is its just so unfunny and hackneyed and marks you down as a 'type' (averagely bright but a little deluded as to your own powers, not really challenged by the issues you are discussing, impressionable) as much as the jibe itself is supposed to.

Jasper Carrott used to do the same with Sun readers in the 80s. It was unfunny and sneery then and this present incarnation is too. Anyone who 'hates' a newspaper, its readership, or claims to, is not quite right.

 

[beorhthelm]

We are discussing newspapers, and if some people can criticise The Mail, in this thread, then I feel it valid to make a comment about a newspaper I don't like. What I don't do, is criticise The Guardian in every thread, like those who castigate the Mail, because they don't really understand the issues being discussed, so disguise it by trying to sound clever in dissing the Mail.

from my sig, you can see i literally castigate the Mail every post the problem with the paper (and the Express, they are essentially the same) is that it thinks it a more sensible, serious newpaper, when its just a tabloid the same as the red tops. they know what they are about, and frankly id rather read the mirror or sun because of that. most Mail readers are really mild, middle aged, middle class people in sensisble jobs and the Mail gives them some shock everyday. really read it, see how shallow and one sided the stories can be, how a negative story can be made out of something really quite ordinary, how 1% of a story is blown up out of proportion and the other 99% ignored and filled with people's soap-oprea lives, not actual news.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Either those jobs are genuine jobs in multi-national companies, or they are self-serving jobs designed to keep us in the EU. Non-jobs for people who don't serve a customer or a community, but work simply to keep their own jobs going.

As previously mention part of my current contract is funded by the EU. I can asure you it is a very real piece of work, it's in collaboration with a major blue-chip company and also very worthwhile and beneficial on a number of levels both financially to the UK coffers and to EU citizens.

 

[cunning fergus]

As previously mention part of my current contract is funded by the EU. I can asure you it is a very real piece of work, it's in collaboration with a major blue-chip company and also very worthwhile and beneficial on a number of levels both financially to the UK coffers and to EU citizens.

The EU does not have any funds........it takes money indirectly from tax payers/businesses via contributions made by their governments or levies additional taxes on directly from consumers by adding levies to the tax system in member states (like VAT) making goods and services more expensive than they should be.

So, the EU is merely passing back some of the money they have taken from hard pressed consumers, businesses or employees in member states. Ironically in the UK at least it is those consumers, employees and businesses who have never had a say on (a) how their taxes are taken and spent by the EU, and (b) how the EU spends the money. going forward there will be more tax raising to come.

EU calls for 'Tobin' tax in a move to raise direct revenue | World news | The Guardian

You will no doubt consider the distribution of some of that money to your bank account as worthwhile, civil servants always do.......but then you are conflicted. You are not going to provide an impartial view on the EU when your livelihood is connected to that institution.........Turkeys don't vote for Christmas do they.

 

[HovaGirl]

from my sig, you can see i literally castigate the Mail every post the problem with the paper (and the Express, they are essentially the same) is that it thinks it a more sensible, serious newpaper, when its just a tabloid the same as the red tops. they know what they are about, and frankly id rather read the mirror or sun because of that. most Mail readers are really mild, middle aged, middle class people in sensisble jobs and the Mail gives them some shock everyday. really read it, see how shallow and one sided the stories can be, how a negative story can be made out of something really quite ordinary, how 1% of a story is blown up out of proportion and the other 99% ignored and filled with people's soap-oprea lives, not actual news.

Years ago, HovaBoy was reading The Sun and I was reading The Mirror and it was a story about how Terry Scott had been burgled or robbed. The Sun completely exaggerated the story and the value of the stuff which had been taken. The Mirror's angle was much more modest and realistic. We've never read The Sun since, and we just can't take it seriously as a newspaper. The Mail and The Express aren't the same. The Express aspires to the Mail's level, but never quite reached it. The Mail thinks of itself as a mid-way paper, though it was a much better paper under Sir David English than it is now. It has dumbed down. But the writing and the investigative articles are far superior to anything in The Express. The Mail doesn't set out to shock. It's just that some of its stories are shocking, but that, of course, depends on your political point of view. It sets out to stand up for England. This England. But you admit you don't read The Mail, so how can you know of its contents? The soap-opera lives are on the online version, not the printed version, which is a very different kettle of bad fish.

 

[HovaGirl]

As previously mention part of my current contract is funded by the EU. I can asure you it is a very real piece of work, it's in collaboration with a major blue-chip company and also very worthwhile and beneficial on a number of levels both financially to the UK coffers and to EU citizens.

Yes, but, in the end, your job, if it is of real value, would exist in some form, with someone's backing, perhaps under another company name, regardless of whether it is "funded by the EU". My German friend in Greece is a scientist and conducts research in a EU-funded research lab. If the EU fell, that lab would still exist in some guise or other, because it would get its valuable funding from somewhere else (Bill Gates, Tony Bloom, American Express or some other benefactor). At the moment, the hapless benefactor is the EU taxpayer, whether he wants to be a benefactor or not and whether he can afford it or not. Which he can't.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

Is it any wonder so many people are sisillusioned about this whole EU thing, when we read stories like this
Now EU fines Britain £250,000 each day | UK | News | Daily Express

It's not like £1,000 a day is it. No it's £250,000 a day for what? Where is this money going?

I suppose this goes to help pay for the use of the F&*k Hotels
Garry Bushell - Online

 

[HovaGirl]

Is it any wonder so many people are so disillusioned about this whole EU thing, when we read stories like this
Now EU fines Britain £250,000 each day | UK | News | Daily Express

It's not like £1,000 a day is it. No it's £250,000 a day for what? Where is this money going?

I suppose this goes to help pay for the use of the f*** Hotels
Garry Bushell - Online

The anti-Mail brigade would love this, if it was a Mail story. Then they could say it's all lies! Or, it's sensationalised! Or, it's taken out of context!

 

[User removed 4]

Is it any wonder so many people are sisillusioned about this whole EU thing, when we read stories like this
Now EU fines Britain £250,000 each day | UK | News | Daily Express

It's not like £1,000 a day is it. No it's £250,000 a day for what? Where is this money going?

I suppose this goes to help pay for the use of the F&*k Hotels
Garry Bushell - Online

The sad thing is , we'll be mug enough to actually pay, the french just tell them to f*** off and hear no more about it, we're still wait for compensation over the lamb burning, how many years ago was that ?

 

[HovaGirl]

Is it any wonder so many people are sisillusioned about this whole EU thing, when we read stories like this
Now EU fines Britain £250,000 each day | UK | News | Daily Express

It's not like £1,000 a day is it. No it's £250,000 a day for what? Where is this money going?

I suppose this goes to help pay for the use of the F&*k Hotels
Garry Bushell - Online

And here's the sensationalist Independent's report:
UK may be fined over failure to honour single market agreement - UK Politics - UK - The Independent

 

[BadFish]

Years ago, HovaBoy was reading The Sun and I was reading The Mirror and it was a story about how Terry Scott had been burgled or robbed. The Sun completely exaggerated the story and the value of the stuff which had been taken. The Mirror's angle was much more modest and realistic. We've never read The Sun since, and we just can't take it seriously as a newspaper. The Mail and The Express aren't the same. The Express aspires to the Mail's level, but never quite reached it. The Mail thinks of itself as a mid-way paper, though it was a much better paper under Sir David English than it is now. It has dumbed down. But the writing and the investigative articles are far superior to anything in The Express. The Mail doesn't set out to shock. It's just that some of its stories are shocking, but that, of course, depends on your political point of view. It sets out to stand up for England. This England. But you admit you don't read The Mail, so how can you know of its contents? The soap-opera lives are on the online version, not the printed version, which is a very different kettle of bad fish.

As you have dragged me into this . I read a copy of the Mail i found on a chair at Heathrow airport a couple of days ago and was also given a copy of the Times on the aeroplane.I found the mail full of sensationalist crap, many stories about worthless celebrities and generally looking for an angle of hate and mistrust whilst covering the same stories as the telegraph. As a comparison of two papers the Mail was awful, lazy sensationalist journalism look to inflame and provoke sensationalism.

i do find this idea interesting that the physical paper and the online version are different in some way.Obviously I don't live in the UK or read The Mail very often (my nan used to) but it seems an odd idea that they are different and my experience above didn't really show any distinction between the two.Sure they carry largely the same stories written by the same journalists with the same editorial bent?

 

[mikeyjh]

from my sig, you can see i literally castigate the Mail every post the problem with the paper (and the Express, they are essentially the same) is that it thinks it a more sensible, serious newpaper, when its just a tabloid the same as the red tops. they know what they are about, and frankly id rather read the mirror or sun because of that.

1 million percent this - They actually do a great job of convincing their users that their journalism is a serious and well balanced. For those of you who are naturally right leaning, do try the Torygraph, you might find it enlightening. It's got to be time for this again right?

 

[Camicus]

And here's the sensationalist Independent's report:
UK may be fined over failure to honour single market agreement - UK Politics - UK - The Independent

Its very simple abide by the RULES. Jesus wept you carry on ignoring the laws and rules and you carry on getting fined. I am filled with absolute horrer that the UK will be stuck in a perpetual hell of a tory goverment with no EU looking after us

 

[HovaGirl]

As you have dragged me into this . I read a copy of the Mail i found on a chair at Heathrow airport a couple of days ago and was also given a copy of the Times on the aeroplane.I found the mail full of sensationalist crap, many stories about worthless celebrities and generally looking for an angle of hate and mistrust whilst covering the same stories as the telegraph. As a comparison of two papers the Mail was awful, lazy sensationalist journalism look to inflame and provoke sensationalism.

Interesting. As I haven't actually bought a Daily Mail in so long, I can't remember when the last time was, I'm particularly surprised about the worthless celebs. I thought that was just online. (I don't actually buy papers any more. I buzz through the online versions or the various news sites to catch up with the news. Frankly, the best news source of all, is NSC, of course!)

 

[User removed 4]

Its very simple abide by the RULES. Jesus wept you carry on ignoring the laws and rules and you carry on getting fined. I am filled with absolute horrer that the UK will be stuck in a perpetual hell of a tory goverment with no EU looking after us

hahahahahaha are you f***ing sure ?? we are one of the small minority that do follow the rules.