Vote Tory for a..umm...err..we sort of might have a sort of referendum on Europe.

[soistes]

No one is claiming that , yours is just the standard post of someone without the wit or wherewithal to give a plausible explanation as to why exactly its a good thing that we've had thousands if not millions of european immigrants here undercutting the wages of native workers ?? Contrary to the popular opinion , the majority of the influx of eastern europeans have beeen unskilled , directly affecting the very people the traitor new labour c*nts claim to represent.

Well, the hard evidence suggests that the impact of recent immigration to the UK on domestic wages has been rather small (indeed in some parts of the wage distribution it may have pushed wages up slightly). You can see some of the evidence cited here. Unfortunately the text is rather lacking in arguments based on "f**king" and "c*nts", but you might nevertheless get the drift.
The Labour Market Effects of Immigration | The Migration Observatory

 

[bazbha]

I wish I'd never mentioned the Daily Mail now! It really does rile the lefties doesn't it! I guess I detest the Guardian etc in the same way but don't feel the need to sneer at anyone that reads it. We are all entitled to our opinions & it's a shame that some think their opinion is more valid. As for mass immigration - that's one thing we'd definitely never be allowed a referendum on!!

 

[HovaGirl]

Why is it patronising? Why do you assume that those who criticise the Mail and its readers haven't read it? I've read it many times (e.g. due to being in places like some hotels or waiting rooms where it's the only choice) and, despite knowing its reputation, I've always been deeply shocked by what appears to me as its insular, populist, zenophobic, smug, and narrow-minded tone.

The website is even worse
Home | Mail Online

As I said before, the Daily Mail was always a populist and jingoistic newspaper. It has always been very much on the side of Team GB, if you like. That is at its heart along with its aim of being a paper designed to be read mostly by women. Many men don't like this, so look down on it smugly. If you don't like it, read another paper. Personally, I can't stand The Guardian, which is full of the insularity of the self-righteous. But I don't do that paper down or smugly condemn its readers because they do not agree with me. We are lucky, in this country, to have several popular daily newspapers serving such a variety of readers. In some countries, you get what the government wants you to read.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I wish I'd never mentioned the Daily Mail now! It really does rile the lefties doesn't it! I guess I detest the Guardian etc in the same way but don't feel the need to sneer at anyone that reads it. We are all entitled to our opinions & it's a shame that some think their opinion is more valid. As for mass immigration - that's one thing we'd definitely never be allowed a referendum on!!

Come on. You cannot contrast the Mail and The Guardian in this way. The Mail journalism is very ill-informed and sensationalist. You might not agree with the politics of The Guardian but its journalism, albeit with a socialist spin, is reasonably sound. Similarly I don't criticise the Telegraph; lousy politics but reasonably sound journalism.

 

[soistes]

Personally, I can't stand The Guardian, which is full of the insularity of the self-righteous

But I don't do that paper down or smugly condemn its readers because they do not agree with me

or because you see them as "insular and self-righteous"?
Slight case of pot, kettle and black, methinks.

(I read the FT, by the way, so not in the least partisan about the Guardian)

 

[Camicus]

No one is claiming that , yours is just the standard post of someone without the wit or wherewithal to give a plausible explanation as to why exactly its a good thing that we've had thousands if not millions of european immigrants here undercutting the wages of native workers ?? Contrary to the popular opinion , the majority of the influx of eastern europeans have beeen unskilled , directly affecting the very people the traitor new labour c*nts claim to represent.

The estimated number of non-British citizens immigrating long-term to the UK in the year to March 2012 was 462,000, similar to the estimate of 486,000 for the year to March 2011. The estimated number of non-British citizens emigrating long-term from the UK was 202,000, similar to the estimate of 194,000 in the year to March 2011. (Figure 2.12)

Final LTIM estimates for 2011 indicate that 488,000 non-British citizens immigrated long-term to the UK in 2011, compared to 498,000 for 2010. Emigration is estimated to have remained constant, with 202,000 non-British citizens departing in 2011 compared with 203,000 for 2010.
From ONS

So not MILLIONS but 400k also its worth noting that 151,000 Brits EMMIGRATED for work in the EU. The thing you fail to see is that we are ALL European and stronger as a whole rather than apart.

There are 30 million jobs in the UK of those 3.8 million are a direct result of our membership of the EU

FWIW I do think immigration is out of control but I also belive that as a modern european country we should embrace the EU and be in the heart of it rather than whining on the edge looking back 50 years.

I know your a Tory to the bone and worship Thatcher but Cameron is playing a very dangerous game that is going to bite all of us in the arse

PS I read the Times as my paper of choice

 

[bazbha]

The estimated number of non-British citizens immigrating long-term to the UK in the year to March 2012 was 462,000, similar to the estimate of 486,000 for the year to March 2011. The estimated number of non-British citizens emigrating long-term from the UK was 202,000, similar to the estimate of 194,000 in the year to March 2011. (Figure 2.12)

Final LTIM estimates for 2011 indicate that 488,000 non-British citizens immigrated long-term to the UK in 2011, compared to 498,000 for 2010. Emigration is estimated to have remained constant, with 202,000 non-British citizens departing in 2011 compared with 203,000 for 2010.
From ONS

So not MILLIONS but 400k also its worth noting that 151,000 Brits EMMIGRATED for work in the EU. The thing you fail to see is that we are ALL European and stronger as a whole rather than apart.

There are 30 million jobs in the UK of those 3.8 million are a direct result of our membership of the EU

FWIW I do think immigration is out of control but I also belive that as a modern european country we should embrace the EU and be in the heart of it rather than whining on the edge looking back 50 years.

I know your a Tory to the bone and worship Thatcher but Cameron is playing a very dangerous game that is going to bite all of us in the arse

PS I read the Times as my paper of choice

What "dangerous game"? Letting the people decide in the form of a referendum? Basing our membership of the EU on the wishes of the majority?

 

[bazbha]

Oops. Double post. Sorry.

 

[Camicus]

What "dangerous game"? Letting the people decide in the form of a referendum? Basing our membership of the EU on the wishes of the majority?

Offering a referendum based on a lie based on getting reelected (its not going to happen) Based on a renegotiation with the rest of the EU also not going to happen. Its almost like hes trying to scare away investment in the UK. People are in favour of a referendum Well Duh do you want to be asked about a big question facing our country? Everybodys going to be in favour of that. Do you want to sever all ties with the EU? That is a vastly different prospect and inspite of 30 years of rabid tabloid papers scare mongering the out come is far to close to call at the moment

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

Well for me first priority is get out of Europeen Union. Other issues follow. However you seem to trust the Conservatives so lets look at the record. ECONOMY= 1973 Ted Heath Conservative took us into the European Union. 1987 Margret Thatcher, culmination of 'selling the family silver' (Quote from Harold MacMilllan) was the Big bang city deregulation and worst of all freedom for the banks on lending....that came home to roost in 2008. EDUCATION= Again under the Thatcher Government, Conservative. Sir Keith Joseph was despatched to America to copy a system, which was ranked lower than the UK at the time. He came back with Sats and a plan for a National curriculmn. This was done and money burned on a redo it after the first issue was flawed. Added to this reducing the pass marks systematically. I was an exam marker in that time and was witness to the declining marks 95% for Grade 'A' became 45%. This led to the so called improved results every year. The damage this has done to our country is immense. We now recruit more qualified from abroad as home grown talent is just not up to a grade that is comparable with the world i.e non competitive. The final part of this mess has to be banning History, that was a tempory measure but its restoration left it a shadow of its former self. Why did this matter, because a nations young fail to gain national identity and as the old saying goes' he/she who fails to learn from history is doomed to repeat it. HEALTH= Easy to sum up in one word 'CUTS' 1980'S Conservative Policy and again under Cameron. You shoot down Labour for its mess but its failure was not to reverse the Conservative changes instead we got more of the same with Thatcher loving Blair. Brown realised all this too late and was doomed. So can UKIP do worse?? I want to see a proud country, united and economically sound. Politics of consensus rather than conflict. Then again I want the Albion to win the Premier League and The Champions league... so might be a long shot.

If, at some point, you have been an exam marker, your spelling, punctuation and grammar are not very good.

 

[bazbha]

Offering a referendum based on a lie based on getting reelected (its not going to happen) Based on a renegotiation with the rest of the EU also not going to happen. Its almost like hes trying to scare away investment in the UK. People are in favour of a referendum Well Duh do you want to be asked about a big question facing our country? Everybodys going to be in favour of that. Do you want to sever all ties with the EU? That is a vastly different prospect and inspite of 30 years of rabid tabloid papers scare mongering the out come is far to close to call at the moment

How do you know he won't be re-elected? Still along time to the next election. Are you therefore suggesting that any party that isn't ahead in the opinion polls not have any policies that they would put in to place should they win the next election? As for "scare mongering" the only people doing that are the EU fanatics on here with their " facts" about how we will all be doomed if we pull out of their beloved EU.

 

[Camicus]

How do you know he won't be re-elected? Still along time to the next election. Are you therefore suggesting that any party that isn't ahead in the opinion polls not have any policies that they would put in to place should they win the next election? As for "scare mongering" the only people doing that are the EU fanatics on here with their " facts" about how we will all be doomed if we pull out of their beloved EU.

Well Labour have had a solid 12 pt lead in the polls for the last 2 years and thats before most of the cuts have come in to force add that the ukip effect wich counter intuitive as it sounds is not all about the EU but more immigration and a reactionary vote from disaffected tories. Its thought that UKIP cost the tories 20 seats at the last election. No boundry changes wich will also hurt DC more than anyone else. The perception that he is not trust worthy with the NHS armed forces police or social care. Also take in to account that he has been damaged by Brooks coulson Levinson tax avoidence

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

How do you know he won't be re-elected?

I'd say it's highly unlikely he will get a majority. Especially after a triple-dip recession and the stripping of Osborne's cherished AAA rating. They have picked fights with everyone in the public sector from the police to the army to local council workers, screwed over the youth and even business leaders are coming out against their blinkered and disastrous ideas on how to run the economy. Which group of people who didn't vote for them before do you think will vote now? Which new voters have they impressed? Because its these people they need for a majority.

 

[HovaGirl]

Funny that. The only place where I can get by without any English is my hairdressers. I speak 100% German to them: hallo, halb,.........(5 minutes pass)................, auf weidersehen.

Love your sarcasm. You may be unaware that Greece is also a magnet for immigrants for whom the common language is English, because while Greeks are excellent at speaking English, they know nothing of Polish, Hindu, Ukrainian, Italian or the languages the Roma speak. You might also be surprised at how many Greeks have been educated, if not in English schools, then in English universities. To a surprising number of them, Britain is like a second home. If immigrants need to communicate in Greece, the only language open to them, is English, depending on how much Greek they have managed to learn.

If you go to Russia, France, Italy or Spain on holiday, guess what the common language is? All these countries are host to all sorts of nationalities who holiday there or even go and live there. In these days of global companies, there are ex-pats of every nation in every other nation, and the common language between them all, is English. In Poland, I hear Japanese speaking English to Poles, or English to holidaymakers from anywhere other than England. Same in France, who have finally admitted to being taught English in schools! (But you do have to at least try to talk to them in French first.)

While living in Greece, my very good friends decided to get married in her home country of Hungary. All his relatives came from Germany, and we were invited too. Best wedding we've ever been to. And the whole thing was conducted in English, including all the chatter at the reception party.

The situation is very different in England, because we already speak this global language of English. And, as with Greece and other nations, we receive so many immigrants speaking so many languages, that we can't speak them all, so English has to be the common language. Mind you, the PC brigade is trying to make Britain as multi-lingual as possible, so perhaps we should all be learning Gujarati, Mandarin, Italian, Greek, Polish, et al.

 

[HovaGirl]

It's going to be an absolute binfest. All the Tory backbenchers are cheering Dave for offering the referendum although officially Dave wants us in Europe, under his terms. So when he gets what he wants there may well not be a referendum after all. Because he is offering this referendum " after winning the next General Election " its a ploy to get all the disaffected Tories back from UKIP. So, pretty much nothing to worry about.

It's partly to out-manoevre UKIP, but it's partly so he can re-negotiate and back-track on some of the treaties so we regain some of our sovereignty. It's a gamble, but if he can stop the unelected bureau-Eurocrats in Brussels from dictating to us how we should live our daily lives and give back the UK some of the power to run itself, then he may actually win a package which might suit the British people better than the totalitarian dictatorship which is currently developing in Europe. The British people might then actually vote "yes" to staying in. If Brussels remains intransigent and the treaties unchanged, then the British people might vote "no", but then Cameron would have his mandate to withdraw, and let Britain take its chances with the rest of the world, like it used to. Who knows, other disaffected members then might think they could do the same so that there develops a more realistic Europe as a market and allied force.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

5 minutes pass ? What do they get up to ? the crossword or something ? You're bald as a f***ing coot !!

There's the main clipper cut, the edging with a blade, some buffing and then some tonic to finish. I admit Stephan is probably not the fastest hairdresser in Berlin but I like it that way.

 

[HovaGirl]

Can someone remind me which was the only British newspaper to support the Nazis during the 1930s?

People often bring that up, but it was a long time ago. Yes, it's an embarrassing history for the Mail to have to admit to. However, we have the benefit of hindsight and now fully know and understand the Nazi agenda. Before the war, the real Nazi agenda was not fully understood. Oswald Moseley was a man of great charisma who managed to sway many British people to join his brownshirts, without fully understanding what it was about. But he was never as successful as the equally charismatic men he was trying to emulate, Hitler and Mussolini. There was a fear of war at the time, which drove nationalism, fear for one's own country, support for one's own country. And that's where the Daily Mail came in. Britain, and the Mail, soon dismissed fascism. It never really took off here, because we're not really a nation of extremists. But a little rump remained and gave birth to the BNP. But none of that makes the Daily Mail the fascist newspaper you are implying.

 

[HovaGirl]

Sorry, didn't realise the German nation was a British newspaper

I think what Stoo82 is implying is, that if you condemn the Daily Mail as a fascist newspaper, then what about the entire German nation which was fascist for 13 years and is the pivotal nation which now demands a Federal Europe? Could its fascism rise again, once Europe is completely under its wing?

 

[HovaGirl]

But that's the thing really, the Mail hasn't changed its core values, even if the words it uses are different these days.

What do you think are its core values? Fascism? If so, why is it the most popular daily newspaper in the world?

 

[HovaGirl]

Well, the hard evidence suggests that the impact of recent immigration to the UK on domestic wages has been rather small (indeed in some parts of the wage distribution it may have pushed wages up slightly). You can see some of the evidence cited here. Unfortunately the text is rather lacking in arguments based on "f**king" and "c*nts", but you might nevertheless get the drift.
The Labour Market Effects of Immigration | The Migration Observatory

Try reading some of the other posts in this thread where this has already been covered. Try also to think outside the box, do some research of your own and come back to us.