[News] UK Independence Day 28/29 March 2018

[Jim in the West]

Yes democracy in action
Where the people who are entitled to vote and use that entitlement can enforce change.

46,501,241 Electorate entitled referendum voters
17,410,742 Vote Leave-Winners
16,141,241 Vote Remain- Losers
12,949,258 Not bothered, just go with the flow and let others decide for them whatever the outcome.

Your problem with democracy appears to stem from the fact you lost a democratic vote, ill leave you to work out how stupid that mindset is

We can argue until the cows come home about how "democratic" the vote was. 16-18 year olds not allowed to vote (despite being the most impacted, having to pay tax, being able to serve in the armed forces, etc). EU nationals in the UK not allowed to vote (despite - again - being massively impacted by the vote). Illegal payments to Vote Leave. Russian influence. etc etc. And being told beforehand that the vote was advisory, not binding. And since then, the government being forced to allow parliament to vote on Article 50 after losing a legal case. And the fact that the majority of Vote Leave's promises will not be delivered. All of those things constitute a Brexiteer's definition of democracy.

However, putting all that to one side, the positive aspect of TRUE democracy is that, at some stage in the not too distant future, we will almost certainly have another referendum. So, no matter how much the Leave campaign celebrate their "victory", there WILL be a chance to rescue things. Simple demographics will ensure that Remain will win the day. Plus, of course, large numbers of those who voted Leave will have seen for themselves the failure of the Leave campaign to deliver on their promises. Whilst I'm fearful of a "No Deal" scenario, it will be so catastrophic that - as a Remainer looking for a collective change of mind from the British public - it will be the best possible outcome

 

[Thunder Bolt]

We can argue until the cows come home about how "democratic" the vote was. 16-18 year olds not allowed to vote (despite being the most impacted, having to pay tax, being able to serve in the armed forces, etc). EU nationals in the UK not allowed to vote (despite - again - being massively impacted by the vote). Illegal payments to Vote Leave. Russian influence. etc etc. And being told beforehand that the vote was advisory, not binding. And since then, the government being forced to allow parliament to vote on Article 50 after losing a legal case. And the fact that the majority of Vote Leave's promises will not be delivered. All of those things constitute a Brexiteer's definition of democracy.

However, putting all that to one side, the positive aspect of TRUE democracy is that, at some stage in the not too distant future, we will almost certainly have another referendum. So, no matter how much the Leave campaign celebrate their "victory", there WILL be a chance to rescue things. Simple demographics will ensure that Remain will win the day. Plus, of course, large numbers of those who voted Leave will have seen for themselves the failure of the Leave campaign to deliver on their promises. Whilst I'm fearful of a "No Deal" scenario, it will be so catastrophic that - as a Remainer looking for a collective change of mind from the British public - it will be the best possible outcome

You're right, and many leavers have realised what a mess is happening, and changed their minds.

Apart from anything else, those that keep quoting democracy, really should read the wording of the Referendum Act 2015, where it said the referendum result was advisory.

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

two deluded posts above BELIEVERS IN THEIR OWN BULLSHIT
regards
DR

 

[pastafarian]

We can argue until the cows come home about how "democratic" the vote was. 16-18 year olds not allowed to vote (despite being the most impacted, having to pay tax, being able to serve in the armed forces, etc). EU nationals in the UK not allowed to vote (despite - again - being massively impacted by the vote). Illegal payments to Vote Leave. Russian influence. etc etc. And being told beforehand that the vote was advisory, not binding. And since then, the government being forced to allow parliament to vote on Article 50 after losing a legal case. And the fact that the majority of Vote Leave's promises will not be delivered. All of those things constitute a Brexiteer's definition of democracy.

However, putting all that to one side, the positive aspect of TRUE democracy is that, at some stage in the not too distant future, we will almost certainly have another referendum. So, no matter how much the Leave campaign celebrate their "victory", there WILL be a chance to rescue things. Simple demographics will ensure that Remain will win the day. Plus, of course, large numbers of those who voted Leave will have seen for themselves the failure of the Leave campaign to deliver on their promises. Whilst I'm fearful of a "No Deal" scenario, it will be so catastrophic that - as a Remainer looking for a collective change of mind from the British public - it will be the best possible outcome

Whilst Parliament has democratically voted to not have another referendum on Brexit, I have no doubt than sometime in the future possibly numbering in decades another attempt will be made to hold a referendum to join the EU.
Doubt I will still be around but good luck in convincing people to join a club where this time there will be no rebates and no opt out of things like the Euro and Schengen.

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

Whilst Parliament has democratically voted to not have another referendum on Brexit, I have no doubt than sometime in the future possibly numbering in decades another attempt will be made to hold a referendum to join the EU.
Doubt I will still be around but good luck in convincing people to join a club where this time there will be no rebates and no opt out of things like the Euro and Schengen.

the EU will have crumbled by then ,just a piss poor outfit going bankrupt
regards
DR

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

Strangely, they seem more united than ever. We shall see..

really, just wait until we say goodbye ................WAKEY WAKEY
regards
DR

 

[GT49er]

We can argue until the cows come home about how "democratic" the vote was. 16-18 year olds not allowed to vote (despite being the most impacted, having to pay tax, being able to serve in the armed forces, etc). EU nationals in the UK not allowed to vote (despite - again - being massively impacted by the vote). Illegal payments to Vote Leave. Russian influence. etc etc. And being told beforehand that the vote was advisory, not binding. And since then, the government being forced to allow parliament to vote on Article 50 after losing a legal case. And the fact that the majority of Vote Leave's promises will not be delivered. All of those things constitute a Brexiteer's definition of democracy.

However, putting all that to one side, the positive aspect of TRUE democracy is that, at some stage in the not too distant future, we will almost certainly have another referendum. So, no matter how much the Leave campaign celebrate their "victory", there WILL be a chance to rescue things. Simple demographics will ensure that Remain will win the day. Plus, of course, large numbers of those who voted Leave will have seen for themselves the failure of the Leave campaign to deliver on their promises. Whilst I'm fearful of a "No Deal" scenario, it will be so catastrophic that - as a Remainer looking for a collective change of mind from the British public - it will be the best possible outcome

I can see tat you're a bit of a fantasist who is probably not interested in anything that doesn't support your fantasies, but please refrain from stating things are facts when they are not.

"And being told beforehand that the vote was advisory, not binding."

This is a link to a transcript of Cameron's pre-referendum speech - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ameron-full-speech-remain-leave-a7093426.html. It's from the Independent, so you can rely on it not being a Leave plot.... You might not want to read it all - it is, on the whole, a bit of a dreary bleat, but it does contain the following:-

"And remember: they can’t undo the decision we take.If we vote out, that’s it. It is irreversible. We will leave Europe – for good."

That is unequivocal. If you vote Leave, we are out. It clearly does not say, if you vote leave, the Government will consider the result very carefully, maybe call for a white paper or something. So, we, the people, were told that if we voted Leave, then leave we would. Definitely. Finally. Irrevocably. End of.
And by the way, the idea that Brexit was some sort of Russian influenced plot - that really is la-la land.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

... cut ...


And by the way, the idea that Brexit was some sort of Russian influenced plot - that really is la-la land.

Or is it ?

Plenty will be coming out in 2018 onwards about the kremlin's hybrid war against western democracy, cambridge analytica, russian FSB disinformation campaigns, ownership and the role and influence of social media targetting of made up propaganda. Where will it all lead ?

It'll be interesting, for sure.

 

[pastafarian]

We can argue until the cows come home about how "democratic" the vote was. 16-18 year olds not allowed to vote (despite being the most impacted, having to pay tax, being able to serve in the armed forces, etc). EU nationals in the UK not allowed to vote (despite - again - being massively impacted by the vote).

In your rush to portray the voting parameters as undemocratic you appear to have forgotten that in the process of finalising The Referendum Act, the ins and outs of who can and who cant vote were debated and even democratically voted on via amendments by Parliament.Those Brits that have lived abroad for over 15 years had the added bonus of being able to challenge the decision (and lose) via the high court, the appeals court and the supreme court all 3 of which decided there was no legal basis that they should be entitled to vote.
Im not sure you even understand what democratic process means,but given you are in the camp that is content to see parliament stripped of law making powers in favour of them being leeched to Brussels i am not surprised you dont.

 

[drew]

I can see tat you're a bit of a fantasist who is probably not interested in anything that doesn't support your fantasies, but please refrain from stating things are facts when they are not.

"And being told beforehand that the vote was advisory, not binding."

This is a link to a transcript of Cameron's pre-referendum speech - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ameron-full-speech-remain-leave-a7093426.html. It's from the Independent, so you can rely on it not being a Leave plot.... You might not want to read it all - it is, on the whole, a bit of a dreary bleat, but it does contain the following:-

"And remember: they can’t undo the decision we take.If we vote out, that’s it. It is irreversible. We will leave Europe – for good."

That is unequivocal. If you vote Leave, we are out. It clearly does not say, if you vote leave, the Government will consider the result very carefully, maybe call for a white paper or something. So, we, the people, were told that if we voted Leave, then leave we would. Definitely. Finally. Irrevocably. End of.
And by the way, the idea that Brexit was some sort of Russian influenced plot - that really is la-la land.

Referendums are not legally binding unless stated in the act of parliament that allows the referendum in the first place. There is nothing in the European Union Referendum Act 2015 that states the result is legally binding.

https://services.parliament.uk/bills/2015-16/europeanunionreferendum.html

You shouldn't claim what a politicians quotes as a legal fact!

I thought this whole fiasco had at least taught everyone that!

 

[Chicken Run]

You're right, and many leavers have realised what a mess is happening, and changed their minds.

Apart from anything else, those that keep quoting democracy, really should read the wording of the Referendum Act 2015, where it said the referendum result was advisory.

Any leave voter who thought that the transition between the result and decree absolute wouldn’t be a mess are indeed a mess themselves, of course it was/ is/ going to be a cluster ****, the EU like anyone on the receiving end of a divorce request are not going to roll over!

 

[JC Footy Genius]

I would never argue that the EU handled Cameron well! Their intransigence will cost us both (us far more tho unfort.)

At least we can both agree their intransigence is to blame and it continues to this day. I still can't believe anyone seriously argued that if we had voted in we would be able to change the EU in a direction more to our liking or hold off the conveyorbelt to ever closer union. Delusional ...

 

[GT49er]

Referendums are not legally binding unless stated in the act of parliament that allows the referendum in the first place. There is nothing in the European Union Referendum Act 2015 that states the result is legally binding.

https://services.parliament.uk/bills/2015-16/europeanunionreferendum.html

You shouldn't claim what a politicians quotes as a legal fact!

I didn't - please check your facts. I stated it was a fact that David Cameron told us it was binding; that remains a fact - he did exactly that, and I showed you the source. That he got it wrong, according to you, is irrelevant; he still said it.

 

[GT49er]

Apart from anything else, those that keep quoting democracy, really should read the wording of the Referendum Act 2015, where it said the referendum result was advisory.

Out of interest, where, exactly? And how come Cameron thought it didn't?

 

[GT49er]

We ALL knew it waaay before the vote.

Absolute rubbish. There's some rubbish spouted on here, but even those on here who are arguing that the referendum was only advisory will consider your contribution derisory. It is an absolute fact that everybody didn't know it waaay (sic) before the referendum.

 

[Two Professors]

Just rescued this from the outside toilet (too shiny for emergencies anyway).Cameron spent millions sending this out round the UK,and this bit says exactly who could vote and what would happen.Anybody could have argued against the terms,but didn't bother because they thought they would win.Perhaps some people think this leaflet doesn't exist any more,so they can spout crap.

 

[Hastings gull]

At least we can both agree their intransigence is to blame and it continues to this day. I still can't believe anyone seriously argued that if we had voted in we would be able to change the EU in a direction more to our liking or hold off the conveyorbelt to ever closer union. Delusional ...

Absolutely.

 

[GT49er]

LOL! Don't try and change history. Perhaps people who didn't bother checking didn't know, but they must be very few and far between.

Sorry, that really is stupid. MILIONS watched David Cameron say on television that if we voted leave, we were out, that was final, and that it could not be changed. Do you seriously expect all the 34M who voted to have personally gone through the referendum act with a fine tooth comb? You're an idiot if you do. You're the one who (forlornly clutching at straws!) is trying to re-write history. Millions of the people who voted Leave (and millions who voted remain too) will not have known it was supposed to be only advisory.
David Cameron appears not to have know that either.

 

[GT49er]

Just rescued this from the outside toilet (too shiny for emergencies anyway).Cameron spent millions sending this out round the UK,and this bit says exactly who could vote and what would happen.Anybody could have argued against the terms,but didn't bother because they thought they would win.Perhaps some people think this leaflet doesn't exist any more,so they can spout crap.

Nice one! And the message was re-iterated unequivocably in Cameron's final address to the nation before the vote. Now the only viable argument remaining to those in denial is to claim that the leaflet wasn't delivered to LaLa Land!

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

In your rush to portray the voting parameters as undemocratic you appear to have forgotten that in the process of finalising The Referendum Act, the ins and outs of who can and who cant vote were debated and even democratically voted on via amendments by Parliament.Those Brits that have lived abroad for over 15 years had the added bonus of being able to challenge the decision (and lose) via the high court, the appeals court and the supreme court all 3 of which decided there was no legal basis that they should be entitled to vote.
Im not sure you even understand what democratic process means,but given you are in the camp that is content to see parliament stripped of law making powers in favour of them being leeched to Brussels i am not surprised you dont.

Something of a distortion of the facts. The relationship between our governing process and Europe has been arrived at perfectly democratically and the European Parliament has always been something that we have again participated in perfectly democratically.

It may be a form of democracy that you don't like, among with many others, and people may perceive it as being undemocratic, but I will perfectly happily say that I do not particularly like our own democratic system. Having been of voting age for some 46 years, I have spent probably less than half that being represented by anyone I actually voted for. At least under the European voting system, there are people representing me in Parliament against whose name I have put a cross.