This "Fans not customers" rubbish

[Billy the Fish]

I've probably waded into this a bit late, but am I the only one who thinks the OP's blog is a load of patronising bollocks?

 

[glasfryn]

I've probably waded into this a bit late, but am I the only one who thinks the OP's blog is a load of patronising bollocks?

no

 

[Hamilton]

105 posts about an expression that it seems was never actually used. NSC at it's finest.

The debate seems to focus on the balance between fan and customer and what that should mean for a football club.

The expression "customer" was used. What was not used was "customers not fans" which appears to have been made up in the minds of some.

What's apparent is that to some being a fan is far more important than customer service, and to others, treating us as customers is essential is we are to drive revenue.

Whether you believe in the former or the latter the question is whether the club is doing a good job of looking after fans or customers at the moment.

If it were a school report I would say "B minus ... A strong start but BHA needs to remember what we learned at the beginning of term as we moved forward towards the big exams."

 

[drew]

The debate seems to focus on the balance between fan and customer and what that should mean for a football club.

The expression "customer" was used. What was not used was "customers not fans" which appears to have been made up in the minds of some.

What's apparent is that to some being a fan is far more important than customer service, and to others, treating us as customers is essential is we are to drive revenue.

Whether you believe in the former or the latter the question is whether the club is doing a good job of looking after fans or customers at the moment.

If it were a school report I would say "B minus ... A strong start but BHA needs to remember what we learned at the beginning of term as we moved forward towards the big exams."

I have to agree with most of what your saying but if I were the parent I whonld be disappointed with b-. In realistic terms, where would you see improvements to get the club up to an A? We have one of the best stadiums in the country in terms of how customers/fans are treated. Best padded seats, best pies, subsidized transport etc.

 

[5Ways Gull]

I'm getting fed up with people going on about fans not customers all the time, I wrote the article below for amexnorthstand.com a while ago which sums up my feelings on the matter. It seems everything Paul Barber does is wrong and people spout this fans not customers rubbish all the time when in fact I don't think people actually understand what they are saying. The new Seagull Priority scheme is to make sure our development as a club continues and we are ready for the next level, if the club waits until we get there then the same people will be moaning that we didn't do it earlier! the scheme is optional after all, if you don't agree with it, you don't have to join.

Anyway, my piece.

Maybe it's just me but I really don’t get this 'Fans not customers' debate. I grew up at the Goldstone, started on the East terrace, moved to the West Stand, often flirting with the South along the way before finally arriving in the North Stand.

If we look beyond the romantic notion of the 'good old days' and look how we were treated during the Goldstone era, these were the days when we were treated just as football fans and the vast amounts of disrespect that went with it. We stood in fenced in pens, often dangerously crammed in for the bigger games, we had to avoid the odd fight when the away fans fancied having a 'go'. Having to stand far too close to people who didn't pay too much attention to personal hygiene, with no way of moving away. Does anyone remember the revolving spikes on top of the fencing when the away fans were in the East? People wouldn't stand for that now would they? The catering offerings, and I use the term catering loosely, were abysmal, really poor and no beer allowed in the later years, we used to queue for food alongside the Gents which used to omit the foulest aroma you could imagine. I'm sure someone has a picture of that area behind the North Stand and how bad it was. In those days we had no real voice, we just accepted that this was the way football fans were treated.

Football has moved on, it had to, to survive it had to change dramatically and it did, we lagged behind this revolution what with the saga that was Brighton and Hove Albion. Thankfully we are now no longer on the road to perdition but have a far brighter future, this future depends on us going in our numbers and making the most of the facilities and all that it entails.

A customer is someone who purchases goods or services from another. Whether you like it or not we are all customers. I purchase a great deal from the club, my son sees to this! This includes merchandise, tickets, food and drink and in all those interactions I want to be treated well. I want to be treated with respect, I want to be served in a reasonable time whether it's in the club shop, on the phone or in the queue for pie and a pint. I like that I can have pint with mates before and after the game, watch Sky or the highlights. I want good value (open to debate I know) and to enjoy the Amex experience. If I didn't get these things I wouldn't want to go back, I wouldn't recommend the club or the Amex to anyone else. Basically if I'm treated well, I will go back for more and recommend the club to others. The club and football in general needs to continue to move forward, give the fans good service and something that they want and they will keep coming back. We cannot rely solely on the blind faith of fans to return week in week out, we need to attract new fans to the BHA family.

As customers, we can expect to be well treated, we have been given the best and that is the benchmark the club have set themselves, and we, as customers expect that level to be maintained. We have a voice and clearly that voice is being heard as we see improvements all round the place and as customers we can continue to see these improvements to our Amex experience because that is what the club wants.

If being a customer means I get all what we've got then and more to come, who am I to complain. Am I happy to be a customer? Yes I am. Am I happy to be a fan as well? Do you really need to ask?

For those who continually bang on about being fans not customers, have a think about what that really means.

The way I see it, we are Customers AND fans, and long may it continue.

Can I just go off on a slight Tangent here. I remember a time when the word "Customer" didn't exist in any football club's vocabulary. It was called "the 70s". Football fans at that time were treated like vermin by most in authority within the game (admittedly in the case of a minority they were probably right). if you take off the nostalgia tinted spectacles, watching football in the 70s and 80s was not a particularly comfortable experience, particularly compared to now.

I personally think the journey to where football is today started with the sickening events of 15th april 1989, and was then accelerated by the Sky TV deal and the money that brought into the game.

At the end of the day I am and always will be a FAN of Brighton and Hove Albion, but I like the fact that they think of me as a customer!!

 

[Guy Fawkes]

Jesus Christ - Is that all Brighton and Hove Albion is to you? A corporate entity, a business akin to Cineworld? If so, you are getting terrible value for money, I would heavily recommend you try a new entertainment service.

No, obviously football clubs are more than just businesses. We are Brighton and Hove Albion and without the fans it is nothing - it would not exist - that is a fact.

So there is absolutely nothing wrong with football fans having a say in what goes on with the clubs that they are so loyal to - In fact it should be expected of football clubs to consult them with any important decision that is made - especially in regards to branding, but almost anything that may effect its identity and match day experience - We are fans, we are Brighton and Hove Albion, BHAFC is bigger than the board and it is certainly not just a collection of customers.

And because of that they feel (wrongly imo) that they can then blackmail the club because without them the club will die so these people make ridiculous demands that no normal business would ever expect or meet.

Just because someone has invested time and money into following the fortunes of a football team it shouldn't give them the right to dictate how that club is run. Most of those who believe they should have a real say probably have very little or no experience of running a business, especially a football club yet think they know what is best rather than trusting the people that have gone through a selection process and have been recruited based on what they can offer the club to fulfil the role that these 'fans' are so desperate to do themselves.

To me, it seems that a few have major trust issues with the club, they may or may not have been involved in fighting to save the club in the dark old days but now seem unable or unwilling to let people like Barber do there job for fear of a repeat and a return to the bad times. They also seem to think the club owes them as a result of their actions but in reality, it should be nothing more that their gratitude and not, as some feel, a say in every decision the club makes.

To those who feel that as a result of our history and the fact that we have strong links to this club, it really shouldn't matter how the club refer to us, be it fans, supporters or customers. I can't see why some seem to think its an insult to be called a customer when that is exactly what you are, a customer!

 

[teaboy]

To me the term "customer" seems to put too much emphasis on the business side of the club. If more, or 'better' (spend more money) customers could be gained by moving the club to Milton Keynes, for instance, would that be a good thing for the club to do?

"Fan" has a much more long-term feel to it. These are the people who will continue to pay the wages if/when we're back at the bottom again.

I feel it all started with the introduction of 'loyalty' points without properly thinking what loyalty means to the fans. The system in itself is not a bad idea but the name is appalling. I understand this is basically semantics, but the connotations are much wider reaching than the club ever imagined. The membership scheme is following this same line, and I hate it. It creates a hierarchy within the fan-base that is not healthy for the long term.

 

[Fitzcarraldo]

This is interesting and kind of on topic:

http://daveboyle.net/published/10-things-i-know-about-football-from-a-decade-at-supporters-direct/

 

[Guy Fawkes]

To me the term "customer" seems to put too much emphasis on the business side of the club. If more, or 'better' (spend more money) customers could be gained by moving the club to Milton Keynes, for instance, would that be a good thing for the club to do?

"Fan" has a much more long-term feel to it. These are the people who will continue to pay the wages if/when we're back at the bottom again.

I feel it all started with the introduction of 'loyalty' points without properly thinking what loyalty means to the fans. The system in itself is not a bad idea but the name is appalling. I understand this is basically semantics, but the connotations are much wider reaching than the club ever imagined. The membership scheme is following this same line, and I hate it. It creates a hierarchy within the fan-base that is not healthy for the long term.

A fan can mean someone who follows the Albion, but never goes to matches, buys merchandise or put any money into the club in any shape for form but someone who watches them when they are on TV, looks out for the results, etc..

A customer can be a fan but is also someone who is putting money into the club through transactions.

A customer can also be someone going to a game who has no real feelings for the club (like i did when i watched a few Lewes ganes years ago at the dripping pan when i went with some Lewes supporting mates) but they could become fans by going (which i didn't at Lewes) - Don't think that everyone attending games is as committed to the club as you, me or anyone else there and in their case, a customer is a more accurate term than fan

 

[hans kraay fan club]

At the end of the day I am and always will be a FAN of Brighton and Hove Albion, but I like the fact that they think of me as a customer!!

Spot on.

 

[teaboy]

A fan can mean someone who follows the Albion, but never goes to matches, buys merchandise or put any money into the club in any shape for form but someone who watches them when they are on TV, looks out for the results, etc..

A customer can be a fan but is also someone who is putting money into the club through transactions.

A customer can also be someone going to a game who has no real feelings for the club (like i did when i watched a few Lewes ganes years ago at the dripping pan when i went with some Lewes supporting mates) but they could become fans by going (which i didn't at Lewes) - Don't think that everyone attending games is as committed to the club as you, me or anyone else there and in their case, a customer is a more accurate term than fan

I don't disagree, but from a 'marketing' point of view I would want the club to talk about fans, and to want to encourage more fans, rather than better customers. It has a much more positive feel to it (regardless of what they actually say or do).

 

[Hotchilidog]

I don't disagree, but from a 'marketing' point of view I would want the club to talk about fans, and to want to encourage more fans, rather than better customers. It has a much more positive feel to it (regardless of what they actually say or do).

Talk to us about what exactly? I still don't get what people need consulting on. On the non-football side I get decent pint, some good food and good facilities. On the footballing side I get the best football I've seen since I started support to the Albion and our highest league finish for decades. I refuse to apologise for not feeling ripped off by this shoddy state of affairs. As has been said elsewhere this is a good time to support the Albion, not a bad one.

Maybe modern football is not for you, then ok, fair enough, I respect that. This situation is not for everyone. But honestly if you think we are being treated like crap then you are way out of line.

 

[MattBackHome]

I am a fan and a supporter, customers choose which brand they purchase and usually look to save money or a better service for the same outlay by pitching competitors against each other to achieve.

I am a customer of Tesco but if I am able to save money by shopping this weekend at Sainsbury's for equal or better quality then I would without any regret or second thought. People who watch football at the Amex and 75% fans/supporters and 25% fans/customers. Given the choice between watching Palace v Man Utd the same day as Brighton v Yeovil then I would never even consider the former. That is the distinction between football supporters and customers.

You're just describing a customer with a greater affinity to the brand. Still a customer.

 

[Hamilton]

Talk to us about what exactly? I still don't get what people need consulting on. On the non-football side I get decent pint, some good food and good facilities. On the footballing side I get the best football I've seen since I started support to the Albion and our highest league finish for decades. I refuse to apologise for not feeling ripped off by this shoddy state of affairs. As has been said elsewhere this is a good time to support the Albion, not a bad one.

Maybe modern football is not for you, then ok, fair enough, I respect that. This situation is not for everyone. But honestly if you think we are being treated like crap then you are way out of line.

You haven't read what teaboy has written in that post. Read it again.

 

[Hamilton]

I have to agree with most of what your saying but if I were the parent I whonld be disappointed with b-. In realistic terms, where would you see improvements to get the club up to an A? We have one of the best stadiums in the country in terms of how customers/fans are treated. Best padded seats, best pies, subsidized transport etc.

I'd say that BHA has done well in studying and learning all of the curriculum. Now BHA needs to learn to use its judgement in how it applies the skills it has learned. Remember the maxim that a fool with a tool is still a fool, and whilst BHA is no fool, it would be easy to slip down that path.

 

[teaboy]

Talk to us about what exactly? I still don't get what people need consulting on. On the non-football side I get decent pint, some good food and good facilities. On the footballing side I get the best football I've seen since I started support to the Albion and our highest league finish for decades. I refuse to apologise for not feeling ripped off by this shoddy state of affairs. As has been said elsewhere this is a good time to support the Albion, not a bad one.

Maybe modern football is not for you, then ok, fair enough, I respect that. This situation is not for everyone. But honestly if you think we are being treated like crap then you are way out of line.

I don't think we should be consulted about most things, and haven't said that. I'm fairly sure modern football isn't for me, but I'd never suggest the customers are being treated like crap.

As an 'matchday experience' (as everything seems to have to be these days) the Amex is top class. However, if you want these customers to feel emotionally involved enough to come back when the football isn't as great you have to make enough of them into fans. To do that there needs to be some give and take from the business. This can be as little as valuing every one of them (not creating a 'better class' of fan with different 'aspirations'), or as much as fan representation on the Board. A lot of it goes down to understanding your 'core customer needs', and in a business like football the most important thing is to NOT make those that pay your wages feel like they personally are replaceable. It sounds and feels arrogant, and when people are spending a fair amount of money at a business with a finite catchment then it can be a very fine line to walk.

 

[glasfryn]

I don't think we should be consulted about most things, and haven't said that. I'm fairly sure modern football isn't for me, but I'd never suggest the customers are being treated like crap.

As an 'matchday experience' (as everything seems to have to be these days) the Amex is top class. However, if you want these customers to feel emotionally involved enough to come back when the football isn't as great you have to make enough of them into fans. To do that there needs to be some give and take from the business. This can be as little as valuing every one of them (not creating a 'better class' of fan with different 'aspirations'), or as much as fan representation on the Board. A lot of it goes down to understanding your 'core customer needs', and in a business like football the most important thing is to NOT make those that pay your wages feel like they personally are replaceable. It sounds and feels arrogant, and when people are spending a fair amount of money at a business with a finite catchment then it can be a very fine line to walk.

Oh definitely this

 

[Hotchilidog]

I don't think we should be consulted about most things, and haven't said that. I'm fairly sure modern football isn't for me, but I'd never suggest the customers are being treated like crap.

As an 'matchday experience' (as everything seems to have to be these days) the Amex is top class. However, if you want these customers to feel emotionally involved enough to come back when the football isn't as great you have to make enough of them into fans. To do that there needs to be some give and take from the business. This can be as little as valuing every one of them (not creating a 'better class' of fan with different 'aspirations'), or as much as fan representation on the Board. A lot of it goes down to understanding your 'core customer needs', and in a business like football the most important thing is to NOT make those that pay your wages feel like they personally are replaceable. It sounds and feels arrogant, and when people are spending a fair amount of money at a business with a finite catchment then it can be a very fine line to walk.

Fair enough, I accept I probably just reacted quickly to what I perceived your comments said rather than how you intended them to be read.

It does appear however that we have a different interpretation of how the club are going about things. In my opinion, for the most part, I think the club understand their core customer needs as well as any football club does. I think the club do encourage an emotional involvement with the club, the small highlights video before the teams come out still gets me every time. As a fan I feel proud of what we offer as a club that others do not. Whilst I also I agree it is a fine line to walk with regards to treatment of fans I believe the club are currently walking on the right side of that line. If they took no notice of what fans wanted but just took the easiest commercial decision we would not be drinking Harveys or eating Piglets pies for instance.

As a fanbase I feel we are looked after pretty well by the club. That is my opinion and I can see it is not shared by all, but given the increasing interest in the Albion in the city and county as a whole I do think the club are doing a decent job so far.

 

[Brovion]

Like others I have no problem with being called a 'customer', I'm a fan of Brighton and Hove Albion FC and a customer of Brighton and Hove Albion PLC (or whatever the company is called).

I do resent though being held up by my ankles and being shaken until every penny has fallen out of my pockets and into the club coffers - but that's just a personal view.

 

[Brovion]

I don't think we should be consulted about most things, and haven't said that. I'm fairly sure modern football isn't for me, but I'd never suggest the customers are being treated like crap.

As an 'matchday experience' (as everything seems to have to be these days) the Amex is top class. However, if you want these customers to feel emotionally involved enough to come back when the football isn't as great you have to make enough of them into fans. To do that there needs to be some give and take from the business. This can be as little as valuing every one of them (not creating a 'better class' of fan with different 'aspirations'), or as much as fan representation on the Board. A lot of it goes down to understanding your 'core customer needs', and in a business like football the most important thing is to NOT make those that pay your wages feel like they personally are replaceable. It sounds and feels arrogant, and when people are spending a fair amount of money at a business with a finite catchment then it can be a very fine line to walk.

Brilliant post