The ultimate REFERENDUM thread

[Kalimantan Gull]

what a dickhead way to vote

3 reasons to vote OUT

Democracy
Accountability
Sovereignty

and where are we going to find these three things? Not in Westminster, thats for sure

 

[Buzzer]

Not a gambit, just an observation.

But it does seem to have rattled a few cages.

if I were in the out camp, I too would be angry with those clowns fronting the campaign.

Don't worry, I'm sure they won't do too much damage.

Oh, I'm not worried at all and nice deflection too! I was chuckling at the brass neck you showed in getting preachy about personal abuse straight after describing people as crackpots and loons. It was marvellous.

 

[alfredmizen]

and the benefits they're putting a brake on are 'in-work' bnefits, not 'out-of-work' benefits

Yes they are,but I still dont think its right that benefits are sent to children living in another country .

 

[Johnny RoastBeef]

You suggested that because the three politicians voting out were, in your opinion, loons and crackpots that therefore those voting out were likewise - i.e. personal abuse which somewhat WEAKENS your argument. And while I'm sure the three aforementioned people don't read NSC it is still personal abuse you posted so you are clearly a hypocrite.

I have no argument, vote how you want.

Maybe I was being a bit hypocritical, but that doesn't change my views, which I am free to air. No?

But I take exception to abuse directed at me personally.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

British, Irish and Commonwealth citizens over 18 who are resident in the UK, along with UK nationals who have lived overseas for less than 15 years. Members of the House of Lords and Commonwealth citizens in Gibraltar will also be eligible, unlike in a general election. Citizens from EU countries - apart from Ireland, Malta and Cyprus - willnot get a vote.

Believe so


Big assumption

- Scotland's population is 5,347,600 so it will have an effect but the whole UK has reached 64.6 million, so as a percentage if all voted to stay that would be less than 10%

Thanks. Why do the Irish get a vote? Strange one that.

On the penultimate point - I made no assumption, asked a question with two alternative thoughts. There are enough threads for arguing opinions (for all the good that does), I thought this one was more about the process and what is actually going to happen, how different groups are going to vote.

On Scotland - their 10% is a substantial block assuming England is pretty close between Inners and Outers. If the Scots are hugely in favour of IN, as proposed by the SNP (and polled?) then it will certainly make getting an OUT vote difficult. However I don't know whether Scotland is truly a strong In vote or not.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

Yes they are,but I still dont think its right that benefits are sent to children living in another country .

No, I 100% agree with you on that.

(Well, 95%, I was personally happy to receive child benefits whilst me and my children were living in another country)

 

[Johnny RoastBeef]

Oh, I'm not worried at all and nice deflection too! I was chuckling at the brass neck you showed in getting preachy about personal abuse straight after describing people as crackpots and loons. It was marvellous.

Thank you

 

[alfredmizen]

No, I 100% agree with you on that.

(Well, 95%, I was personally happy to receive child benefits whilst me and my children were living in another country)

I would be too , but we're all hypocrites at heart !

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

Fact is the in campaign is all based around money and corporate buffoons who only care about themselves and their finances....while the out campaign is about what's important to be British and to control and run our own country as we so wish.

Oh come on, you must have read every post on these threads, is that really how my opinion and others comes across, as someone who only cares about my finances.........?

not a fair comment

 

[cunning fergus]

I would say that this vote is more meaningful to people under 50 than over - they will have to live with the result for possibly longer. Some of was relevant 30 years ago has changed now. Whilst we were worried about immigration and jobs then its more about benefits for migrants and the effect on wages now.

And there are far more issues than than immigration and what immigrants think about immigration - but to the out campaign majority not much else matters.

Just like the Scottish independent vote its not an political hot potato that will go away with a stay in win - perhaps we need a out vote to answer whether it was right or not? but even then an out vote might lead to the break up of Europe because I can't see why Europe would want to meet our demands for any other reason.

I still think it will be 4 months of debate but a result based on one issue really

I don't follow that logic, on the basis of your argument we may as well restrict the voting rights of those who are terminally ill too.

To me, the subject of immigration in this debate is a symptom of a wider cause, and that is that the UK has lost its sovereign right to govern itself. Immigration is both a visible and tangible example of this loss of sovereignty, but there are many many others.

I think it's the inners who always like to focus on immigration in these debates because it fits nicely with their narrative that it the nasty UKIP anti immigration types who are leading the charge for out.

Yet politicians like Dennis Skinner will also vote out if he sticks to his political beliefs, because he also wants the UK Parliament to regain sovereign control. The media don't like to undermine this ongoing UKIP narrative so I don't expect they will reflect this reality with any vigour.

Until the media and the inners do I would agree migration will remain a central theme, the outers need to keep their nerve and remain focuses on the greater issue........regaining national sovereignty.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

and where are we going to find these three things? Not in Westminster, thats for sure

Cynic lol!

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

I don't follow that logic, on the basis of your argument we may as well restrict the voting rights of those who are terminally ill too.

To me, the subject of immigration in this debate is a symptom of a wider cause, and that is that the UK has lost its sovereign right to govern itself. Immigration is both a visible and tangible example of this loss of sovereignty, but there are many many others.

I think it's the inners who always like to focus on immigration in these debates because it fits nicely with their narrative that it the nasty UKIP anti immigration types who are leading the charge for out.

Yet politicians like Dennis Skinner will also vote out if he sticks to his political beliefs, because he also wants the UK Parliament to regain sovereign control. The media don't like to undermine this ongoing UKIP narrative so I don't expect they will reflect this reality with any vigour.

Until the media and the inners do I would agree migration will remain a central theme, the outers need to keep their nerve and remain focuses on the greater issue........regaining national sovereignty.

Spot on, excellent post.

 

[pastafarian]

and where are we going to find these three things? Not in Westminster, thats for sure

Better off in Westminster than Brussels

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

Better off in Westminster than Brussels

and if we might agree that democracy and accountability are in short supply in either of these parliaments, then it comes down to which of these parliaments best serves our individual interests. For my politics, its Brussels, for yours its Westminster.

 

[sir albion]

I don't follow that logic, on the basis of your argument we may as well restrict the voting rights of those who are terminally ill too.

To me, the subject of immigration in this debate is a symptom of a wider cause, and that is that the UK has lost its sovereign right to govern itself. Immigration is both a visible and tangible example of this loss of sovereignty, but there are many many others.

I think it's the inners who always like to focus on immigration in these debates because it fits nicely with their narrative that it the nasty UKIP anti immigration types who are leading the charge for out.

Yet politicians like Dennis Skinner will also vote out if he sticks to his political beliefs, because he also wants the UK Parliament to regain sovereign control. The media don't like to undermine this ongoing UKIP narrative so I don't expect they will reflect this reality with any vigour.

Until the media and the inners do I would agree migration will remain a central theme, the outers need to keep their nerve and remain focuses on the greater issue........regaining national sovereignty.

Well balanced view and agree...Sadly the inners are not interested in sovereignty and national identity.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

Better off in Westminster than Brussels

That's correct. At least some of the Great British voting public are aware of their MP's. How many of us could name our MEP's? That's greater accountability for a start.

 

[pastafarian]

and if we might agree that democracy and accountability are in short supply in either of these parliaments, then it comes down to which of these parliaments best serves our individual interests. For my politics, its Brussels, for yours its Westminster.

and here is the pay off
If democracy and accountability are based in Westminster you have the option to make a difference.
You lose this option in Brussels.

im voting OUT as i believe it is in the interest of the nation as a whole not what is best for me,cant you drop whats in your individual interest just this once and vote according to the interests of everyone?

you left out sovereignty

 

[pb21]

Well balanced view and agree...Sadly the inners are not interested in sovereignty and national identity.

Sovereignty is not a prerequisite for national identity.

 

[Chicken Runner61]

No - it's important to everyone what I was referring to was your point about waiting 30 years - I've probably changed my view 1/2 times as life and as the EU has changed - I think the deal we had in recent years was the best we could have had - sure there's still things wrong but world events and changing times have had as much to do with life and the economy here as the EU has. In or out immigration is still going to be an issue. Security and terrorism will be the same problem wherever. Economic problems yeah having a sovereign currency saved us from a lot of pain but there may be times when having the euro might be better. We will have to see if the vote is out

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

and here is the pay off
If democracy and accountability are based in Westminster you have the option to make a difference.
You lose this option in Brussels.

im voting OUT as i believe it is in the interest of the nation as a whole not what is best for me,cant you drop whats in your individual interest just this once and vote according to the interests of everyone?

you left out sovereignty

I don't care about the latter. My ancestors were Normans who invaded Britain in 1066, so I guess I'm a Frenchie anyway

As for democracy - I keep trying to vote out right of centre parties in Britain and I keep failing. And yet much of the environmental policy that fails to get on the agenda in the UK becomes law through the EU. Thats my personal interest, but its not a selfish interest, and I strongly believe it is in the nation's interest as well.

I also strongly believe that our government (from whatever party) do not act in the interests of everyone but instead in the interests of a narrow section of society, i.e. big business, banks, and so on, and so I see no reason to give them more power.

There are counterarguments about the EU, of course, some things may be better out of the EU, but I've weighed up the pros and cons and am satisified with my position.

As I know you are with your position. And as a supporter of Democracy, you'll know that one of the first rules of democracy is to respect your opponents views and votes. I'll try and convince people through debate, but thats all.