The ultimate REFERENDUM thread

[Chicken Runner61]

Well balanced view and agree...Sadly the inners are not interested in sovereignty and national identity.

That's funny because I've always found people from other countries in the EU really proud of their country and national identity. And I've noticed that a lot of the outs that focus on national identity have the worst traits of it.

 

[gregbrighton]

We need to take control of our own borders and make our own laws without Brussels looking over our shoulder.

 

[pastafarian]

I don't care about the latter. My ancestors were Normans who invaded Britain in 1066, so I guess I'm a Frenchie anyway

As for democracy - I keep trying to vote out right of centre parties in Britain and I keep failing. And yet much of the environmental policy that fails to get on the agenda in the UK becomes law through the EU. Thats my personal interest, but its not a selfish interest, and I strongly believe it is in the nation's interest as well.

I also strongly believe that our government (from whatever party) do not act in the interests of everyone but instead in the interests of a narrow section of society, i.e. big business, banks, and so on, and so I see no reason to give them more power.

There are counterarguments about the EU, of course, some things may be better out of the EU, but I've weighed up the pros and cons and am satisified with my position.

As I know you are with your position. And as a supporter of Democracy, you'll know that one of the first rules of democracy is to respect your opponents views and votes. I'll try and convince people through debate, but thats all.

if thats your opinion of all governments (and i dont claim they are perfect) i really dont know why you bother voting

i dont believe sovereignty is the same as nationality,are you not approaching that from the wrong direction?

 

[Blazing Apostle]

If vote is out I presume that Cameron will have to resign - so who would take over as PM before we have another Gen Elec?

 

[cunning fergus]

and if we might agree that democracy and accountability are in short supply in either of these parliaments, then it comes down to which of these parliaments best serves our individual interests. For my politics, its Brussels, for yours its Westminster.

To some extent you could make that point, however that is to compare a manifestly undemocratic system with a lesser version.

The key institution in the EU is the European Commission, this is the executive law marking arm and its commissioners and its President are not accountable to the electorate.

It is the Commission that is one leg of the wholly unelected Troika that essentially governs Greece, it's the Commission that instructs national states how many immigrants they should receive and its the Commission that agrees the EU trade deals like TTIP. See below.

https://stop-ttip.org/eu-commission-wants-to-wipe-out-citizens-involvement-in-ttip-and-ceta/

The European Parliament has very little power and is essentially an elected equivalent of the House of Lords.

In the UK the lawmakers are elected by the people, and they can be thrown out if they are shits (Portillo and Balls spring to mind). There are undoubtedly flaws in this system but it remains manifestly more democratic.

If you think the EU in Brussels represents your kind of politics then good luck to you.........democracy is evidently not that important to you.

 

[cunning fergus]

No - it's important to everyone what I was referring to was your point about waiting 30 years - I've probably changed my view 1/2 times as life and as the EU has changed - I think the deal we had in recent years was the best we could have had - sure there's still things wrong but world events and changing times have had as much to do with life and the economy here as the EU has. In or out immigration is still going to be an issue. Security and terrorism will be the same problem wherever. Economic problems yeah having a sovereign currency saved us from a lot of pain but there may be times when having the euro might be better. We will have to see if the vote is out

You are right we will be faced with issues, however the question is can we deal with them more effectively as an independent democratic sovereign state or a component part subordinate to an largely unelected executive.

I dare say there will be plenty of people who want to be governed as part of a quasi federal superstate, that is their right.......I just cant agree with that.

 

[Murray 17]

One of the most disappointing aspects of NSC for me when it comes to debates on Europe, is the way that a minority of those who want us to remain in resort to calling those who want out names such as 'racist', 'xenophobes' etc. Also posting pictures of 'out' campaigners, suggesting for some reason these are stupid people. I wish the debate could be had without this.

It's 'OUT' for me, and I'm certainly not any of the above.

 

[French Seagull]

Well balanced view and agree...Sadly the inners are not interested in sovereignty and national identity.

I think you may be wrong on that, can still have sovereignty and national identity being in, just on balance feel for me (at the moment) better in than out.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Why out?
What will the GDP if we leave, for example, be compared to if we stay over the next ten years? In numbers not words.
What will be the social impacts of not being part of the eu be compared to being in it?

These are just two questions. If you can't answer how is it that you can vote out if you don't know what effect it will have?

What will be the GDP if we stay, for example, be compared to if we leave over the next ten years? In numbers not words.

What effect will the ongoing Eurozone crisis have on EU member nations economies including ours?

What effect will the ongoing migrant crisis have on societal cohesiveness and national stability across Europe in the coming years?

How can you vote in if you don't know the answers.

 

[Murray 17]

The USA, Australia and Canada aren't part of a union like Europe, and having experience of all 3 I can say that they all have a standard of living as good as ours, if not better. They have control over their own laws, borders etc, and don't have to contribute billions of pounds to a central 'government'. Even the best economists in the world could not say for sure what would happen if we left. I am happy to take that 'risk'.

 

[French Seagull]

I don't care about the latter. My ancestors were Normans who invaded Britain in 1066, so I guess I'm a Frenchie anyway

As for democracy - I keep trying to vote out right of centre parties in Britain and I keep failing. And yet much of the environmental policy that fails to get on the agenda in the UK becomes law through the EU. Thats my personal interest, but its not a selfish interest, and I strongly believe it is in the nation's interest as well.

I also strongly believe that our government (from whatever party) do not act in the interests of everyone but instead in the interests of a narrow section of society, i.e. big business, banks, and so on, and so I see no reason to give them more power.

There are counterarguments about the EU, of course, some things may be better out of the EU, but I've weighed up the pros and cons and am satisified with my position.

As I know you are with your position. And as a supporter of Democracy, you'll know that one of the first rules of democracy is to respect your opponents views and votes. I'll try and convince people through debate, but thats all.

This,

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

The USA, Australia and Canada aren't part of a union like Europe, and having experience of all 3 I can say that they all have a standard of living as good as ours, if not better. They have control over their own laws, borders etc, and don't have to contribute billions of pounds to a central 'government'. Even the best economists in the world could not say for sure what would happen if we left. I am happy to take that 'risk'.

Arn't the USA, and Australia both collections of even more closely integrated states than the EU ?

 

[Murray 17]

Arn't the USA, and Australia both collections of even more closely integrated states ?

I think we can safely say that they are all part of the same country.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

I think we can safely say that they are all part of the same country.

They are collections of states with a Federal government. Even the dreaded EU doesn't go that far.

 

[5ways]

http://www.economist.com/blogs/bagehot/2016/02/bojo-breaks-ranks?fsrc=scn/tw/once

This is interesting on the sovereignty angle. The economist's quixotic liberalism will grate with some but I think it makes good points.

 

[Hampster Gull]

I think we can safely say that they are all part of the same country.

States with a federal government. The future of the EU

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

They are collections of states with a Federal government. Even the dreaded EU doesn't go that far.

But they are all united by common language and culture. Those countries are united by nationalism. Not something which can apply to the EU. In the end eu countries will always look after number one.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

States with a federal government. The future of the EU

The future the eu would like to happen. But it will not happen with us as a member.

 

[BadFish]

I think we can safely say that they are all part of the same country.

But both countries are a union of states.

 

[BadFish]

But they are all united by common language and culture. Those countries are united by nationalism. Not something which can apply to the EU. In the end eu countries will always look after number one.

This is a bit of a stretch Have you been to South Australia