The ultimate REFERENDUM thread

[Herr Tubthumper]

God you talk some absolute un-researched piffle.What about Andorra,Brazil,Chile,Peru,Ecuador,to name a few?Just because you write it,doesn't make it Holy Writ

Spain does not have universal free health care as far as I'm aware. You have to be in employment and paying tax ie you're paying for it via contributions. Plus there's a handful of exceptions. If you're a Brit you can get free health care regardless, as it will be charged to the NHS.

 

[melias shoes]

"not Scots non-resident in Scotland." Which should apply to "Not English/Scots (British) non resident in UK" imo.

I understood it perfectly.

 

[Soulman]

I understood it perfectly.

Thanks, HT often fails to understand when it does not meet his views.

 

[melias shoes]

i know that,you know that,i suspect even the IN campaign know that,this is why they wont even bother telling anyone what their reform agenda is.
The EU is not for turning,never has been and never will

Correct. A shafting is on the cards if we vote In.

 

[melias shoes]

Camerons "manifesto" is a joke, it addresses NO key items at all.

It doesnt give us control of our borders
It doesnt make the EU democratic
It doesnt return sovereign powers to the UK
It doesnt return judicial powers to the UK

im surprised you of all people have been so easily hoodwinked by his boyish charm,he has sold you a lemon and you have bought it hook line and sinker.

As for the message it couldnt be clearer VOTE OUT

when you say "Might this, might that, we could do this, or maybe this" you see indecisive

i see a message that says we can be a a self determining independent sovereign nation again.
we can aim for anything we want,the opportunities are endless,the world is our oyster to choose any path that is the best from Britain free from interference from Brussels.

Correct. I see the EU more of a hindrance than anything else. Holding us back.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Thanks, HT often fails to understand when it does not meet his views.

It's the double negative which confuses me.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Camerons "manifesto" is a joke, it addresses NO key items at all.

It doesnt give us control of our borders
It doesnt make the EU democratic
It doesnt return sovereign powers to the UK
It doesnt return judicial powers to the UK

im surprised you of all people have been so easily hoodwinked by his boyish charm,he has sold you a lemon and you have bought it hook line and sinker.

As for the message it couldnt be clearer VOTE OUT

when you say "Might this, might that, we could do this, or maybe this" you see indecisive

i see a message that says we can be a a self determining independent sovereign nation again.
we can aim for anything we want,the opportunities are endless,the world is our oyster to choose any path that is the best from Britain free from interference from Brussels.

Fine. We're not going anywhere with this discussion. There's a very clear in/out referendum in a few months. Let's see what the UK wants and let's both be magnanimous upon the outcome.

 

[Biscuit]

As a centre-left softie, I think I should, quite naturally, fall with the 'in' crowd. I've always considered the 'outters' as being a ragbag group of right-wing scaremongers and idiots if I'm being totally honest. However I'm been doing a lot of reading on the subject and I think I'm now 55% in the 'out' camp. Allow me to explain my reasons:

The 'deal' that Cameron has negotiated isn't worth the paper it's written on. Many, many people would be more than happy to stick with the EU if we could manage our own laws and control our own migration, while keeping good, strong, trading relationship with the EU - and I honestly thought a reformed Europe could achieve this. Unfortunately it doesn't look like an 'in' vote will change anything. It'll still allow the EU to make key decisions on our future, decisions which we should be making ourselves. I want migration when it's filling skill-gaps and helping our country and growing our economy, not an open door to five-hundred million EU nationals who can come and go at will. Can we really justify the £350 million a week that goes to Brussels? Could that not be better spent on internships and apprenticeships here in the UK?

And this 'red card' veto isn't a veto at all, it'll just mean we can bring something in for debate. If history has taught us anything it's that the EU will ignore our concerns and carry on regardless.

I think it's unfair to say the 'out' camp are just using the politics of fear. There's some very good points being made, points which the 'in' camp can't answer.

I'm very open-minded on this, and willing to be convinced either way, but right now the 'out' camp are making far more sense.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

As a centre-left softie, I think I should, quite naturally, fall with the 'in' crowd. I've always considered the 'outters' as being a ragbag group of right-wing scaremongers and idiots if I'm being totally honest. However I'm been doing a lot of reading on the subject and I think I'm now 55% in the 'out' camp. Allow me to explain my reasons:

The 'deal' that Cameron has negotiated isn't worth the paper it's written on. Many, many people would be more than happy to stick with the EU if we could manage our own laws and control our own migration, while keeping good, strong, trading relationship with the EU - and I honestly thought a reformed Europe could achieve this. Unfortunately it doesn't look like an 'in' vote will change anything. It'll still allow the EU to make key decisions on our future, decisions which we should be making ourselves. I want migration when it's filling skill-gaps and helping our country and growing our economy, not an open door to five-hundred million EU nationals who can come and go at will. Can we really justify the £350 million a week that goes to Brussels? Could that not be better spent on internships and apprenticeships here in the UK?

And this 'red card' veto isn't a veto at all, it'll just mean we can bring something in for debate. If history has taught us anything it's that the EU will ignore our concerns and carry on regardless.

I think it's unfair to say the 'out' camp are just using the politics of fear. There's some very good points being made, points which the 'in' camp can't answer.

I'm very open-minded on this, and willing to be convinced either way, but right now the 'out' camp are making far more sense.

by your own admission I guess this means you're an idiot then

 

[Hampster Gull]

Ever closer Union, Federal Superstate, full steam ahead.

Whats wrong with that?

 

[beorhthelm]

Whats wrong with that?

Well it's fine if that's what we want. But the inners aren't really telling us thats the outcome, they either brush over it or in denial that it is a consequence of staying in. Indeed the deal from Cameron is supposed to pretend we will be safeguarded from this option, as he and other inners think the EU project will slow down to our tune. It will not. To vote in to endorse a path towards federal states of Europe. But rather than tell us how good this will be they will promote project fear against the change that comes form leaving. And there will be change, fact is that a change will happen in or out.

 

[BadFish]

I think any person would have to be incredibly gullible or naive to believe reform is just over the horizon and is attainable as long as we stay in the EU. The PM promised a new substantial reformed relationship with the EU. He had the best possible negotiating position with the very real threat of Brexit and he achieved very little. (Certainly not a new substantially reformed relationship with the EU)

I think you can say the same about those who believe an out vote would lead to the UK government making the changes they desire. Someone mentioned earlier that the government could save 350 million a week and invest it in apprenticeships and training. Undoubtedly they could do this but I very much doubt they would. The same could be said about immigration, successive governments clearly do not want to do anything about immigration otherwise they would have put tighter controls on the immigration they have power over. The trouble with this vote is that you are really just trying to swap one corrupt entity that does not represent the british people for another.

 

[Hampster Gull]

Well it's fine if that's what we want. But the inners aren't really telling us thats the outcome, they either brush over it or in denial that it is a consequence of staying in. Indeed the deal from Cameron is supposed to pretend we will be safeguarded from this option, as he and other inners think the EU project will slow down to our tune. It will not. To vote in to endorse a path towards federal states of Europe. But rather than tell us how good this will be they will promote project fear against the change that comes form leaving. And there will be change, fact is that a change will happen in or out.

Not sure what you and others mean when you say inners. There is no one view, its a broad church. As it is for "outers". There is no one voice

 

[Soulman]

As a centre-left softie, I think I should, quite naturally, fall with the 'in' crowd. I've always considered the 'outters' as being a ragbag group of right-wing scaremongers and idiots if I'm being totally honest. However I'm been doing a lot of reading on the subject and I think I'm now 55% in the 'out' camp. Allow me to explain my reasons:

The 'deal' that Cameron has negotiated isn't worth the paper it's written on. Many, many people would be more than happy to stick with the EU if we could manage our own laws and control our own migration, while keeping good, strong, trading relationship with the EU - and I honestly thought a reformed Europe could achieve this. Unfortunately it doesn't look like an 'in' vote will change anything. It'll still allow the EU to make key decisions on our future, decisions which we should be making ourselves. I want migration when it's filling skill-gaps and helping our country and growing our economy, not an open door to five-hundred million EU nationals who can come and go at will. Can we really justify the £350 million a week that goes to Brussels? Could that not be better spent on internships and apprenticeships here in the UK?

And this 'red card' veto isn't a veto at all, it'll just mean we can bring something in for debate. If history has taught us anything it's that the EU will ignore our concerns and carry on regardless.

I think it's unfair to say the 'out' camp are just using the politics of fear. There's some very good points being made, points which the 'in' camp can't answer.

I'm very open-minded on this, and willing to be convinced either way, but right now the 'out' camp are making far more sense.

So the " ragbag group of right-wing scaremongers and idiots" may not be as daft as you thought eh.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Whats wrong with that?

1.) Those that really want it aren't being honest with the electorate.They either suggest we can opt out or reform Europe in a different direction which is bulls*it. It's a bit like being stuck in quicksand you can resist all you want but it gets you in the end. Brexit is a last chance lifeline.

2.) The UK is a nation state not a sub region of a new European Empire where Germany calls the shots.

3.) The introduction of the building blocks that are necessary elements that create a Superstate destabilise Europe (see Eurozone crisis). The ongoing drive for a European Army will diminish and weaken NATO. Which is a goal of some of our European partners who resent a US presence in Europe.

4.) The many historical, economic, cultural, societal differences seen in the Nation states of Europe are so diverse that harmonising and integrating these nations to a point where a Federal Government is possible will be extremely difficult/impossible. See Migrant crisis as a prime example of the limits of togetherness when confronted with national interests.

5.) Democracy/Sovereignty. Name me one EU treaty we have signed that has transferred more powers and laws back to the nation state than it has taken. There isn't one. More and more powers gravitate to the EU bit by bit , see quicksand analogy. The elected representatives of Scotland and Wales always ask for more and more powers to be devolved back to their assemblies so they can exercise more self determination it therefore follows the more power going to a Federal European body weakens ours.

Over to you. What's right about creating a Federal European Superstate?

 

[Raleigh Chopper]

I thought I would tune into The Andrew Marr Show this morning to get the views of Boris and the out campaign.
It was the worst interview I have ever seen.
Boris talked incoherent clap trap and just spoke all over Marr.
Marr lost total control and talked about Marmalade.
Boris answered none of the questions but managed to turn them into only what he wanted to say.
It was an absolute car crash interview that must have made many not decided yet voters to vote stay, but then we have Cameron cocking up and lying his way through it as usual.
All we need is facts but we are never going to get it from the clowns we have as politicians on all sides.
The only fun but is watching the Tories rip themselves apart.
Strange thing politics, Labour are just sitting back and smirking at The Tories ripping themselves apart, that is their only concern, which in a very important debate is equally appalling.
I have laugh at the Tories on the exit side complaining about lies and scaremongering, because as a collective that is exactly what they done leading up to the general election, they refused to answer any difficult questions, lied and scared people about Labour into voting Tory.
Now the shoe is on the other foot they are like whinging kids.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

I think you can say the same about those who believe an out vote would lead to the UK government making the changes they desire. Someone mentioned earlier that the government could save 350 million a week and invest it in apprenticeships and training. Undoubtedly they could do this but I very much doubt they would. The same could be said about immigration, successive governments clearly do not want to do anything about immigration otherwise they would have put tighter controls on the immigration they have power over. The trouble with this vote is that you are really just trying to swap one corrupt entity that does not represent the british people for another.

I have some sympathy for your view and do not trust a future UK government to deliver all or even most of what I and others expect in a post Brexit scenario. But I do know it is a damn site easier for the British people to directly influence and remove our MP's and government than bring any sort of change in the EU.

 

[5ways]

by your own admission I guess this means you're an idiot then

Well that doesn't help does it.

 

[brighton fella]

Well with arguments like this the outers are bound to triumph.

if your choice is to remain a brain dead idiot for the rest of your life rather than learn about the very c*nts that you so shamefully happen to support then more f*cking fool you...you reap what you sow pal.

 

[Hampster Gull]

1.) Those that really want it aren't being honest with the electorate.They either suggest we can opt out or reform Europe in a different direction which is bulls*it. It's a bit like being stuck in quicksand you can resist all you want but it gets you in the end. Brexit is a last chance lifeline.

2.) The UK is a nation state not a sub region of a new European Empire where Germany calls the shots.

3.) The introduction of the building blocks that are necessary elements that create a Superstate destabilise Europe (see Eurozone crisis). The ongoing drive for a European Army will diminish and weaken NATO. Which is a goal of some of our European partners who resent a US presence in Europe.

4.) The many historical, economic, cultural, societal differences seen in the Nation states of Europe are so diverse that harmonising and integrating these nations to a point where a Federal Government is possible will be extremely difficult/impossible. See Migrant crisis as a prime example of the limits of togetherness when confronted with national interests.

5.) Democracy/Sovereignty. Name me one EU treaty we have signed that has transferred more powers and laws back to the nation state than it has taken. There isn't one. More and more powers gravitate to the EU bit by bit , see quicksand analogy. The elected representatives of Scotland and Wales always ask for more and more powers to be devolved back to their assemblies so they can exercise more self determination it therefore follows the more power going to a Federal European body weakens ours.

Over to you. What's right about creating a Federal European Superstate?

We'd all learn a second language, German