The ultimate REFERENDUM thread

[Herr Tubthumper]

"not Scots non-resident in Scotland." Which should apply to "Not English/Scots (British) non resident in UK" imo.

I'm struggling to keep up with you. What?

 

[pastafarian]

In Berlin I am surrounded by people all carving a way through study, part time jobs, start-ups, small business, music, the arts etc etc. They can do this because of the freedoms the EU affords them. And I know from personal experience how easy it was for me to move my freelance work from the UK to Germany and to live here. It really was no more different or difficult than when I moved to Brighton from London (I'm Brighton born before anyone starts on a DFL trip).

I also know an American girl and how it is for her to study here, continually renew her visa, the restrictions placed upon her for EU travel and work and also those of her American husband. I also know how ridiculously difficult it was for her to transfer some funds to the country; it was utterly bizarre the hoops she had to jump through to move a sizeable amount of cash out of the US. Again, I can contrast this with myself.....for me it's no different to transferring cash to a friend. I'd like to point out this American was sought out by the university; they wanted her, she had the university on her side, the uni is well versed in visas and stuff, but it is still a ball-ache for her and them. I struggle to see how or why a small business or start up will even bother to undertake the red-tape and visa paper work for their positions when they can simply say "when can you start?" to a EU passport holder. And you don't come across lots of Americans in the burgeoning start up scene for the reasons I give.

And I appreciate your comments about project fear; I hope you don't see this particular post as fear either. I know the EU can improve in many ways. But I have certain things which I feel strongly about, opportunity is one of them, and I really do believe that UK people will be disadvantaged from their EU brothers and sisters the minute things change. I don't want to deny them the opportunities we all take for granted. And while the kids are getting on with interesting shit around the continent the UK can sit at the big table and improve the EU.

I get it,it’s a ballache …..but so what?
Its not impossible,its achievable and for those that want it and want to pursue it no opportunity has been lost.
It’s a small price to pay to make the country safer through stronger borders and controlled immigration,

More importantly I see you mention the EU is flawed and needs improving……..are you going to share what these flaws are that need to be reformed or is it some secret you are holding on to?

 

[Deleted member 22389]

1.3 million Brits in EU countries. It's much much higher than that I think. Spain, alone has 1 million British passport holders. France is high as well.

And I'm pretty certain Spain will be acting strongly if Britain does withdraw as they're a real burden on the system. I doubt they'll be slung out but you will probably see health care withdrawn.

Health care will not be withdrawn, if your British Citizen you will still get this free. A burden on the system? Sure it is with all the properties the Brits buy abroad, it keeps a lot of Spanish and French in employment, and not forgetting the tourist industry on top of that. The Brits pay there way across the whole of the EU unlike the UK where lots of money goes out in benefits and money earned leaves the country.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I get it,it’s a ballache …..but so what?
Its not impossible,its achievable and for those that want it and want to pursue it no opportunity has been lost.

So what? The stuff I'm talking about I believe it will be prohibitive, as it proves for many non-EU citizens. That's what. You might not give a stuff about ease of opportunity for UK citizens, I do.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Health care will not be withdrawn, if your British Citizen you will still get this free.

Spain doesn't provide free health care to non-EU countries.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

More importantly I see you mention the EU is flawed and needs improving……..are you going to share what these flaws are that need to be reformed or is it some secret you are holding on to?

No secret. I have touched on them previously on this site. But a couple of my big-ticket items are that I would prefer the council to be directly elected as opposed to indirectly ie nominated. I'd like some fiscal policy as well. An example of a small item is the UKs vetoes; I wouldn't allow them for consumer based legislation. But with the current referendum I prefer to discuss the positives. We can save this for another day.

 

[beorhthelm]

I also know an American girl and how it is for her to study here, continually renew her visa, the restrictions placed upon her for EU travel and work and also those of her American husband. I also know how ridiculously difficult it was for her to transfer some funds to the country; it was utterly bizarre the hoops she had to jump through to move a sizeable amount of cash out of the US. Again, I can contrast this with myself.....for me it's no different to transferring cash to a friend. I'd like to point out this American was sought out by the university; they wanted her, she had the university on her side, the uni is well versed in visas and stuff, but it is still a ball-ache for her and them. I struggle to see how or why a small business or start up will even bother to undertake the red-tape and visa paper work for their positions when they can simply say "when can you start?" to a EU passport holder. And you don't come across lots of Americans in the burgeoning start up scene for the reasons I give. .

You cite US citizens having issues but those are based on their country's rules, who while allowing people to freely leave and travel officially, make it burdensome with regulations that treat you as suspicious and tax system that considers that you still owe the motherland, i.e. it's not the EU or lack of of being from the EU that makes this difficult. Plenty from other nations, Africa, middle East, South Asia, far east come to the UK with little problems once they have their visa sorted. European banks have systems that allow easy, cheap transfers, independently of EU rules, with branches out of the EU taking advantage (major marketing point for several banks).

 

[JC Footy Genius]

1.3 million Brits in EU countries. It's much much higher than that I think. Spain, alone has 1 million British passport holders. France is high as well.

And I'm pretty certain Spain will be acting strongly if Britain does withdraw as they're a real burden on the system. I doubt they'll be slung out but you will probably see health care withdrawn.

I was going on the Telegraph's figures which appear to be well sourced.

Looking at other sources the FT puts those living in Europe at 1.8 million (1 million in Spain) with 2.34 million EU citizens living here.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/5cd640f6-9025-11e3-a776-00144feab7de.html#axzz427c1Jfpb

Another source which many people seem to like suggests over 3 million EU citizens are here in the UK and as we know there is a substantial net increase every year.

http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/migration-flows-a8-and-other-eu-migrants-and-uk

I think it's safe to say there are significantly more EU citizens living here than UK citizens in all other EU countries combined. Which reinforces the point that a mutually beneficial post Brexit agreement is in all our interests. Stopping healthcare access would bring reciprocal action if that did actually happen.

 

[pastafarian]

So what? The stuff I'm talking about I believe it will be prohibitive, as it proves for many non-EU citizens. That's what. You might not give a stuff about ease of opportunity for UK citizens, I do.

Its good you are coming round HT and changing your language.
Previously you have said people were denied opportunity all together,now at least you agree its about ease of access and the perceptions of that.

 

[pastafarian]

No secret. I have touched on them previously on this site. But a couple of my big-ticket items are that I would prefer the council to be directly elected as opposed to indirectly ie nominated. I'd like some fiscal policy as well. An example of a small item is the UKs vetoes; I wouldn't allow them for consumer based legislation. But with the current referendum I prefer to discuss the positives. We can save this for another day.

Now this is where the IN campaign are failing,they talk about staying in so we can sit at the table and reform Europe but are not interested in discussing these reforms until a later date.Right now is very much the time to put forward the reform agenda so the British people can decide if its worthwhile to stay in and try.You are fooling no one by simply wanting to sit behind rose tinted glasses and only talk about the positives when you agree there are negatives.It does a great disservice to a full open debate.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Now this is where the IN campaign are failing,they talk about staying in so we can sit at the table and reform Europe but are not interested in discussing these reforms until a later date.Right now is very much the time to put forward the reform agenda so the British people can decide if its worthwhile to stay in and try.You are fooling no one by simply wanting to sit behind rose tinted glasses and only talk about the positives when you agree there are negatives.It does a great disservice to a full open debate.

But surely the Out campaign is being even less specific, particularly in terms of the type of trade agreement it prefers? (And as far as this weekend is concerned the most specific thing I've learnt from the Outers is that we are definitely more likely to have out heads cut off if we stay in.)

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Now this is where the IN campaign are failing,they talk about staying in so we can sit at the table and reform Europe but are not interested in discussing these reforms until a later date.Right now is very much the time to put forward the reform agenda so the British people can decide if its worthwhile to stay in and try.You are fooling no one by simply wanting to sit behind rose tinted glasses and only talk about the positives when you agree there are negatives.It does a great disservice to a full open debate.

The in campaign has a very clear message: certain key items have been re-negotiated, Cameron's manifesto items if you like. And we will sit at the table and take a more active roll in the future of Europe on all other items. Vote in or out.

The message from the out campaign is quite muddled. Might this, might that, we could do this, or maybe this, Norway, Switzerland, WTO, Peru......oh, project fear fear fear. What is it they're trying to say (apart from project fear)?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

But surely the Out campaign is being even less specific, particularly in terms of the type of trade agreement it prefers? (And as far as this weekend is concerned the most specific thing I've learnt from the Outers is that we are definitely more likely to have out heads cut off if we stay in.)

Quite.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Now this is where the IN campaign are failing,they talk about staying in so we can sit at the table and reform Europe but are not interested in discussing these reforms until a later date.Right now is very much the time to put forward the reform agenda so the British people can decide if its worthwhile to stay in and try.You are fooling no one by simply wanting to sit behind rose tinted glasses and only talk about the positives when you agree there are negatives.It does a great disservice to a full open debate.

I think any person would have to be incredibly gullible or naive to believe reform is just over the horizon and is attainable as long as we stay in the EU. The PM promised a new substantial reformed relationship with the EU. He had the best possible negotiating position with the very real threat of Brexit and he achieved very little. (Certainly not a new substantially reformed relationship with the EU)

The EU federalists know once this is decided in their favour we can be safely side lined as no future government in the near future will give us another chance to express an opinion. It will be the same old story of us fighting a failing rear guard action battling for minor opt outs to slow the on going loss of power and decision making. We know this to be true as it has been happening for decades.

 

[Two Professors]

Spain doesn't provide free health care to non-EU countries.

God you talk some absolute un-researched piffle.What about Andorra,Brazil,Chile,Peru,Ecuador,to name a few?Just because you write it,doesn't make it Holy Writ

 

[Soulman]

I think any person would have to be incredibly gullible or naive to believe reform is just over the horizon and is attainable as long as we stay in the EU. The PM promised a new substantial reformed relationship with the EU. He had the best possible negotiating position with the very real threat of Brexit and he achieved very little. (Certainly not a new substantially reformed relationship with the EU)

The EU federalists know once this is decided in their favour we can be safely side lined as no future government in the near future will give us another chance to express an opinion. It will be the same old story of us fighting a failing rear guard action battling for minor opt outs to slow the on going loss of power and decision making. We know this to be true as it has been happening for decades.

Spot on.

 

[pastafarian]

The in campaign has a very clear message: certain key items have been re-negotiated, Cameron's manifesto items if you like. And we will sit at the table and take a more active roll in the future of Europe on all other items. Vote in or out.

The message from the out campaign is quite muddled. Might this, might that, we could do this, or maybe this, Norway, Switzerland, WTO, Peru......oh, project fear fear fear. What is it they're trying to say (apart from project fear)?

Camerons "manifesto" is a joke, it addresses NO key items at all.

It doesnt give us control of our borders
It doesnt make the EU democratic
It doesnt return sovereign powers to the UK
It doesnt return judicial powers to the UK

im surprised you of all people have been so easily hoodwinked by his boyish charm,he has sold you a lemon and you have bought it hook line and sinker.

As for the message it couldnt be clearer VOTE OUT

when you say "Might this, might that, we could do this, or maybe this" you see indecisive

i see a message that says we can be a a self determining independent sovereign nation again.
we can aim for anything we want,the opportunities are endless,the world is our oyster to choose any path that is the best from Britain free from interference from Brussels.

 

[pastafarian]

I think any person would have to be incredibly gullible or naive to believe reform is just over the horizon and is attainable as long as we stay in the EU. .

i know that,you know that,i suspect even the IN campaign know that,this is why they wont even bother telling anyone what their reform agenda is.
The EU is not for turning,never has been and never will

 

[JC Footy Genius]

i know that,you know that,i suspect even the IN campaign know that,this is why they wont even bother telling anyone what their reform agenda is.
The EU is not for turning,never has been and never will

That is the reality. It is Impossible to have a reform agenda when a majority do not see any need for reform. Ever closer Union, Federal Superstate, full steam ahead.

 

[Soulman]

i know that,you know that,i suspect even the IN campaign know that,this is why they wont even bother telling anyone what their reform agenda is.
The EU is not for turning,never has been and never will

Probably why those that will benefit financially want us to stay in by using scare/if's and buts tactics. Cameron went to the EU in a strong position with the referendum on the horizon and still came back with bugger all. No chance of getting any concessions if we stay in.