The Sun is disgusting

[The Antikythera Mechanism]

Whereas Al-Qaeda's method of beheading innocent hostages with a blunt carving knife on video is acceptable? Get real FFS, you have to deal with this medieval scum by using techniques they understand, not "Tell us where your bombs are......pleeeease!"

 

[daveinprague]

Whereas Al-Qaeda's method of beheading innocent hostages with a blunt carving knife on video is acceptable? Get real FFS, you have to deal with this medieval scum by using techniques they understand, not "Tell us where your bombs are......pleeeease!"

Have Al Qaeda beheaded people in the UK or the USA?
Get out of their countries, and perhaps they will leave us the feck alone.

 

[Easy 10]

....and if that also involves torturing innocent people, is that justified too? Why not extend it to bombing whole villages if you know that there MAY be Al-Qa'Eda operatives amongst them, is that justified too?

Randomly bombing villages obviously cannot be justified.

But if a piece of intelligence gleaned from waterboarding helped foil a planned terrorist attack, and as a result this meant a member of my family iis still walking around alive and well today instead of being spread in bits across several postcode areas, then I'm afraid quite selfishly if thats the only way to get that vital information then so be it.

I'm just being honest, thats how I look at it and thats how I feel about it.

 

[daveinprague]

lets just kill everybody else, who threaten us or may threaten us in the future, and then we will all be safe.

 

[Tooting Gull]

Just can't see it is as black and white as some are claiming in certain, specific scenarios. If you catch someone red-handed making bombs, and you know he/she is in a cell, or there are others, and that there is some sort of campaign planned, what are you supposed to do? Sit back, wait for the bombs to go off, count the corpses, happy that 'morally' you haven't exerted a bit of pressure to at least try and foil the terrorism?

If I found out that security services in that situation had just said 'Pretty please, where and when are the other bombs going off', got nowhere, and then afterwards a relative of mine had got killed as a direct result, I don't think I'd be very understanding about it. In that situation I would expect some pressure to be applied for information. I'm not talking about a corkscrew through the eyeball, but something. And if you ask me where exactly I'd draw the line, the honest answer is I don't know because like most people on here I haven't been in that situation.

 

[The Antikythera Mechanism]

Have Al Qaeda beheaded people in the UK or the USA?
Get out of their countries, and perhaps they will leave us the feck alone.

They detonate bombs in mosques in Iraq and Pakistan murdering other muslims - they are f***ing mad.

 

[daveinprague]

They detonate bombs in mosques in Iraq and Pakistan murdering other muslims - they are f***ing mad.

We killed a couple of hundred thousand civilians in Iraq, what does that make us?

 

[The Antikythera Mechanism]

We killed a couple of hundred thousand civilians in Iraq, what does that make us?

I have never condoned the Bush/Blair war, but 600,000 Iranians and 400,000 Iraqis were killed in the Iraq
v Iran war, including 100,000 Iranians killed by chemical weapons. Whose side was their precious Allah on then?

 

[daveinprague]

I have never condoned the Bush/Blair war, but 600,000 Iranians and 400,000 Iraqis were killed in the Iraq
v Iran war, including 100,000 Iranians killed by chemical weapons. Whose side was their precious Allah on then?

Whose side was the christian prophet/god on in the many countless wars between catholics and protestants?
How many christians killed in WW1?
I dont see the relevance, other than the west ie USA using Iraq as its puppet to attack somebody else they didnt like. Where did those chemical weapons come from? Where did the intelligence to target those weapons come from?

 

[Brovion]

Randomly bombing villages obviously cannot be justified.

But if a piece of intelligence gleaned from waterboarding helped foil a planned terrorist attack, and as a result this meant a member of my family iis still walking around alive and well today instead of being spread in bits across several postcode areas, then I'm afraid quite selfishly if thats the only way to get that vital information then so be it.

I'm just being honest, thats how I look at it and thats how I feel about it.

You're talking about a 'best case' bit of torture. How many crap bits, or deliberately misleading bits, of information would had to have been extracted before you got a decent bit? How do you select the people for interrogation? How do you select the interregation method? Your 'good bit' of intel would simply be the tip of a very large and very sordid iceberg.

And to take it to the extreme, yes, the odd bomb going off that could have been prevented if we'd 'thoroughly interrogated' dozens or hundreds of people is the price we have to pay for living in a free society with respect for human rights.

 

[The Antikythera Mechanism]

Whose side was the christian prophet/god on in the many countless wars between catholics and protestants?
How many christians killed in WW1?
I dont see the relevance, other than the west ie USA using Iraq as its puppet to attack somebody else they didnt like.

Fanatical muslims will always have their holy wars, be it against other denominations or different sects of their own religion. They are firmly rooted in the middle ages, constantly needing a devil to fight. The leaders of Al-Qaeda, and to a lesser extent, the mullahs, are intelligent men, using the jihad excuse as a means to achieve power for themselves, by manipulating their brainwashed followers to maim and murder others, in the name of Allah

 

[daveinprague]

Fanatical muslims will always have their holy wars, be it against other denominations or different sects of their own religion. They are firmly rooted in the middle ages, constantly needing a devil to fight. The leaders of Al-Qaeda, and to a lesser extent, the mullahs, are intelligent men, using the jihad excuse as a means to achieve power for themselves, by manipulating their brainwashed followers to maim and murder others, in the name of Allah

American voted for Reagan who took us close to nuclear armigeddon in 1983..
The Americans voted for Bush (not particularly intelligent) who took us to senseless war, and the British voted for Blair who joined him...
Have you not noticed the rise of fundamental christians in the USA?
Its a power game...religion has nothing to do with it..im glad you see the point.

 

[Tooting Gull]

And to take it to the extreme, yes, the odd bomb going off that could have been prevented if we'd 'thoroughly interrogated' dozens or hundreds of people is the price we have to pay for living in a free society with respect for human rights.

I would disagree with that, remembering that we could be talking about hundreds of murdered innocent civilians. And I can't see anyone uttering those words to the relative of a victim either.

But it's a complex issue, and at the end of the day that's what the study of ethics is about, finding those situations (or 'best case torture' in your words) that test your moral compass. For example, to whom do the security services owe their primary 'duty of care' - to the public under terrorist threat, or to the suspect's human rights?

 

[Easy 10]

to whom do the security services owe their primary 'duty of care' - to the public under terrorist threat, or to the suspect's human rights?

And that is the ultimate crux of the matter.

Moral superiority and the protection of a terrorists human rights would, for me, be very scant consolation if one of my friends or family had been blown to bits in an attack.

 

[daveinprague]

And that is the ultimate crux of the matter.

Moral superiority and the protection of a terrorists human rights would, for me, be very scant consolation if one of my friends or family had been blown to bits in an attack.

It is very complex..
I also see people in Afghanistan and other muslim countries taking the same view..we seem to be blowing them to bits on a far grander scale....with a longer historical trail.
Which is my point..they are all as bad as one another.

 

[User removed 4]

Have Al Qaeda beheaded people in the UK or the USA?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/from-baghdad-to-birmingham-nine-held-over-plot-to-kidnap-british-muslim-soldier-434576.html

 

[Easy 10]

It is very complex..
I also see people in Afghanistan and other muslim countries taking the same view..we seem to be blowing them to bits on a far grander scale....with a longer historical trail.
Which is my point..they are all as bad as one another.

Its a quandry innit.

What would Jack Bauer do ?

 

[daveinprague]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/from-baghdad-to-birmingham-nine-held-over-plot-to-kidnap-british-muslim-soldier-434576.html

Alright Bushy, havnt seen you for a while..hope youre well...

Anyway...do you see the key words in that sentence? One begins with B and one begins with A....
Were there arrests and convictions?
If it happened..probably a lone nutter...made to look like more to justify keeping troops in these
countries and keeping the fear levels high in uk/europe

''MI5 and police believe they have foiled an alleged plan''

Just more whipping up of emotions i think...

If they did...fair enough...im sure theres enough nutters out there to consider such a thing.
but still a single case.......of lunatics..rather than a global plot...

and at the end of the day...why would they be doing it?...
They are doing and planning these things because of what we are doing in their countries..
Get out of their countries and leave them alone and see how it goes..

I cant think of any threats to us from muslims prior to getting involved in the madness of Iraq, and subsequent invasion of Afghanistan...

 

[Brovion]

I would disagree with that, remembering that we could be talking about hundreds of murdered innocent civilians. And I can't see anyone uttering those words to the relative of a victim either.

But it's a complex issue, and at the end of the day that's what the study of ethics is about, finding those situations (or 'best case torture' in your words) that test your moral compass. For example, to whom do the security services owe their primary 'duty of care' - to the public under terrorist threat, or to the suspect's human rights?

I think it's only a 'complex issue' if you think there is ever a situation when torture is an acceptable approach. In some ways it's like discussing the death penalty. Those in favour of it (and it's something else to which I'm opposed) can tie themselves up in knots arguing about the method and when it should be applied and when it shouldn't. For me it's very simple - never.

And the answer to your second question is 'both'. They're protecting the individual from society and society from the individual.

 

[Biscuit]

Out of interest when Britian was on it's knees during the height of WWII. Facing ''unimaginable risk and threat'' did Churchill ever resort to torture of German POW?

Just wondering, like...