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The Chancellor debate - 8m Channel 4 - Part 1
- Thread starter Uncle Spielberg
- Start date
We are not talking about how I percieved it, we are talking about the audience reaction, they laughed along with Darling.
Uncle Spielberg
Well-known member
- Thread starter
- #42
Did that laugh with him or at him. Its all about perception you see.
Deportivo Seagull
I should coco
Indeed it is, and I perceive that Osbourne couldn't find his arse with map.
I've heard Osbourne speak on a number of occassions and quiet frankly he's awful, what are the Tories thinking of! He's a disaster (BTW I've never voted labour). I can only assume that he has photo's of Cameron with a goat. Sorry if Osbourne is the best the Tories can offer as a Chancellor then we are up sh*t creek without a paddle ...
Darling, was alright but as someone has said it's not easy defending the indefensible.
Cable came over well, but with Clegg as the party leader ....
Bore draw
folkestonesgull
Active member
well newsnight seemed to think it was the sharpest moment of the debate US and it got a laugh from me given the discussion at the time was about more cross party cooperation on important issues.
I thought Cable came across very well and it would be an interesting time if the media ever allowed our election to become a 3 horse race. His honesty was very refreshing regarding hard choices that any chancellor would have to make.
Osbourne is too vague given the election is in 4 or 5 weeks and his idea that efficiency savings could be doubled to £12billion, without identifying where they are coming from and without touching the NHS (which as an organisation has more beauracracy than most) did not in my opinion add up to good fiscal policy - the conservatives are increasingly looking to me like a party whose election campaign has no substance.
Darling showed some authority and scored well on the conservative tax cut pledge that was announced yesterday morning. That said, he has had 13 years, 11 of which were booming and his party did not stop child poverty, did not put aside a surplus and allowed society to fragment further than ever so you have to ask why should we trust them now?
Newsnight afterwards had a great piece from their economist about britains need for a new type of economy - did anyone see it?
I thought Cable came across very well and it would be an interesting time if the media ever allowed our election to become a 3 horse race. His honesty was very refreshing regarding hard choices that any chancellor would have to make.
Osbourne is too vague given the election is in 4 or 5 weeks and his idea that efficiency savings could be doubled to £12billion, without identifying where they are coming from and without touching the NHS (which as an organisation has more beauracracy than most) did not in my opinion add up to good fiscal policy - the conservatives are increasingly looking to me like a party whose election campaign has no substance.
Darling showed some authority and scored well on the conservative tax cut pledge that was announced yesterday morning. That said, he has had 13 years, 11 of which were booming and his party did not stop child poverty, did not put aside a surplus and allowed society to fragment further than ever so you have to ask why should we trust them now?
Newsnight afterwards had a great piece from their economist about britains need for a new type of economy - did anyone see it?
Albion Dan
Banned
Assuming you get the most balanced view from The Independant paper here's how they called it:
ALISTAIR DARLING
Darling was Darling. Whereas Cable sounded like an academic, and Osborne more like Tory Boy, the Chancellor was what he always professes himself to be, a grown-up politician, a practical man dealing with practical problems in that earnest way of his. He had three priorities: secure the recovery; get the deficit down; secure jobs in the future. Few numbers were quoted, and he looked vulnerable when pressed on the detail of spending cuts, as well he might. "Tenacity" was the quality he brought to bear on the crisis. That rang true. Still and all, he didn't really explain why the Government has not yet reformed the banks nor why it missed the dangers developing in the great bubble. In other words, he was fairly lucky that neither Cable nor Osborne pressed him on that. The Chancellor suffered from the handicap that we have heard his shtick often, so that made his presentation predictable as well as dull. He did better, one suspects, than he had hoped, and probably better than Ed Balls might have. That was the main thing. He is a politician, after all.
BUDGET BOX RATING ***
GEORGE OSBORNE
As the underdog, George Osborne went in to the studio with the least to lose, and he lost it. It must have seemed a good idea at the time, the cut in national insurance paid for by cuts and efficiency savings in the public sector, but the Tory message has been badly muddied by this. The post-show Tory spinners did a no more effective job than the shadow Chancellor himself in answering the question about what comes first: cutting borrowing or cutting taxes? If those economies are really there, then is it not – as David Cameron and Osborne have been claiming for months – best to hurl the cash into the desperate cause of defending the nation's triple-AAA credit rating? In 1940, Winston Churchill didn't talk about relieving the burden of NI on the middle classes while the fate of the nation hung in the balance. So why now? Osborne had the whiff of decay about him. He sounded almost petulant in refusing to co-operate on care for the elderly. If George's problem was credibility, then a Channel 4 debate was not the answer. It was very Labour circa 1992 – not quite sorted out and not quite convincing.
BUDGET BOX RATING: *
VINCE CABLE
The cult of Cable lives. The Liberal Democrat went into this debate with the most to lose, but he none-too-gently reminded the audience that he did indeed warn about the impending crisis, the candy floss economy founded on debt and a housing bubble – and they warmly applauded him. Thus emboldened, he cleaved to Darling on economics, and to George Osborne on taxing, breaking up and castrating the "casino banks". Neither his opponents nor the chair nor the audience seemed inclined to scrutinise the weaker points in the Cable critique, though Darling did make the point that it wasn't just big bad banks that failed – it was small bad banks, such as Northern Rock and Bradford and Bingley too. It was a clever little waltz by Vince. Oddly, Cable didn't make enough of his best policy, which is to take anyone under £10,000 a year out of income tax. And it is hard to believe that a man of Mr Cable's intelligence and sensibility could come out with a line about bankers being "pin-striped Scargills". He looked slightly ill at ease knocking that one out, but that's politics.
BUDGET BOX RATING: ****
ALISTAIR DARLING
Darling was Darling. Whereas Cable sounded like an academic, and Osborne more like Tory Boy, the Chancellor was what he always professes himself to be, a grown-up politician, a practical man dealing with practical problems in that earnest way of his. He had three priorities: secure the recovery; get the deficit down; secure jobs in the future. Few numbers were quoted, and he looked vulnerable when pressed on the detail of spending cuts, as well he might. "Tenacity" was the quality he brought to bear on the crisis. That rang true. Still and all, he didn't really explain why the Government has not yet reformed the banks nor why it missed the dangers developing in the great bubble. In other words, he was fairly lucky that neither Cable nor Osborne pressed him on that. The Chancellor suffered from the handicap that we have heard his shtick often, so that made his presentation predictable as well as dull. He did better, one suspects, than he had hoped, and probably better than Ed Balls might have. That was the main thing. He is a politician, after all.
BUDGET BOX RATING ***
GEORGE OSBORNE
As the underdog, George Osborne went in to the studio with the least to lose, and he lost it. It must have seemed a good idea at the time, the cut in national insurance paid for by cuts and efficiency savings in the public sector, but the Tory message has been badly muddied by this. The post-show Tory spinners did a no more effective job than the shadow Chancellor himself in answering the question about what comes first: cutting borrowing or cutting taxes? If those economies are really there, then is it not – as David Cameron and Osborne have been claiming for months – best to hurl the cash into the desperate cause of defending the nation's triple-AAA credit rating? In 1940, Winston Churchill didn't talk about relieving the burden of NI on the middle classes while the fate of the nation hung in the balance. So why now? Osborne had the whiff of decay about him. He sounded almost petulant in refusing to co-operate on care for the elderly. If George's problem was credibility, then a Channel 4 debate was not the answer. It was very Labour circa 1992 – not quite sorted out and not quite convincing.
BUDGET BOX RATING: *
VINCE CABLE
The cult of Cable lives. The Liberal Democrat went into this debate with the most to lose, but he none-too-gently reminded the audience that he did indeed warn about the impending crisis, the candy floss economy founded on debt and a housing bubble – and they warmly applauded him. Thus emboldened, he cleaved to Darling on economics, and to George Osborne on taxing, breaking up and castrating the "casino banks". Neither his opponents nor the chair nor the audience seemed inclined to scrutinise the weaker points in the Cable critique, though Darling did make the point that it wasn't just big bad banks that failed – it was small bad banks, such as Northern Rock and Bradford and Bingley too. It was a clever little waltz by Vince. Oddly, Cable didn't make enough of his best policy, which is to take anyone under £10,000 a year out of income tax. And it is hard to believe that a man of Mr Cable's intelligence and sensibility could come out with a line about bankers being "pin-striped Scargills". He looked slightly ill at ease knocking that one out, but that's politics.
BUDGET BOX RATING: ****
Albion Dan
Banned
For whats its worth I didnt see it but from reading a few papers this morning most reports calling Cable the winner, with Osbourne third.
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Uncle Spielberg
Well-known member
- Thread starter
- #49
Dan
Although called " the Independant " it is and always has been feircely anti Tory. " Independant " they are not.
Although called " the Independant " it is and always has been feircely anti Tory. " Independant " they are not.
...as you provide a very good example of with your analysis and scores. No-one in their right mind could have placed Osborne's performance above Darling's last night. (note: I've never voted Labour)
SULLY COULDNT SHOOT
Loyal2Family+Albion!
Unc.. ypu are right that in just about the whole time that Independent has existed it has slagged the Tories....
However, seeing as it started during the Thatcher years that is not entirely surprising. In a ddition it has done quite a few hatchet jobs on labour too over the last few years (e.g. it went after Blair in abig way over the Iraq war). Independent is Independent because it says it can slag off everyone... just in the lst twenty or so years the Tories have given the Independent most ammunition. That doesn't make it a socialist paper.
Uncle Spielberg
Well-known member
- Thread starter
- #52
blind as well as stupid
Uncle Spielberg
Well-known member
- Thread starter
- #54
There's none so blind...
as Labour voters.
as Labour voters.
Hatterlovesbrighton
something clever
I'm of centre right political persuasion and used to like the independent as it carried a balance of opinion. But about five years ago it started ditching lots of it "righter" thining columnists in favour of New Labour types.
While it isn't really a socialist organ it has now become pathetically wet and lily livered, perhaps because sales have diminished so much they are scared of losing their traditional left wing readership they don't want to attract others.
Hopefully this Russian guy will make some good changes.
VeronaSeagull
New member
The greatest issue I have with Osborne is he had no real policies, just Labour bashing! As always with an election all of these pledges are just vote winners not reality, I mean things like reducing National insurance by 1% but still paying off the debt!
Darling came across as a reasonable man even if his credibility has been damaged in the past. Cable came across as knowing what he was doing but of course he can be much clearer than the other two because of the position of the liberal democrats. I think Cameron was probably hiding behind a sofa whenever Osborne spoke he just came across as arrogant and out of touch.
Darling came across as a reasonable man even if his credibility has been damaged in the past. Cable came across as knowing what he was doing but of course he can be much clearer than the other two because of the position of the liberal democrats. I think Cameron was probably hiding behind a sofa whenever Osborne spoke he just came across as arrogant and out of touch.
I thought all 3 looked extremely nervous. Having said that none of them made a complete balls up. All of them stuck to the party line, so no surprises.
None of them changed people perceptions of them. Only Osborne hardened his perception, in that many people still have a view of the Tories as the spiteful party. He managed to reinforce his and his parties image by rubbishing Vince Cable as “a vote for the liberal democrats is a wasted vote”. It came across as aloof and condescending. Also, its not particularly true, as in a hung parliament the lib dems will probably have a very strong hand in any Govt.
None of them changed people perceptions of them. Only Osborne hardened his perception, in that many people still have a view of the Tories as the spiteful party. He managed to reinforce his and his parties image by rubbishing Vince Cable as “a vote for the liberal democrats is a wasted vote”. It came across as aloof and condescending. Also, its not particularly true, as in a hung parliament the lib dems will probably have a very strong hand in any Govt.
Uncle Spielberg
Well-known member
- Thread starter
- #59
That was a major gaffe by Osborne, he did failry well over the hour but even I thought that comment was ill judged and the uk public don't like being told a main party have no chance, they will decide for themselves
Arthritic Toe
Well-known member
Cable was always going to win this hands down as he consistently warned about the impending debt/credit crisis prior to the collapse in 2007. "You don't know what you're doing" springs to mind for the other two.