[Football] Sutton United Ladies put their head above the parapet

[Curious Orange]

I think you're being a pedant.

Okay, the phrase 'being born into the wrong body' can be twisted and misconstrued. Happy?

The points previously made still stand. And as we've agree, it's not a mental health issue alone.

I'm glad we agree.

I am being pedantic precisely because that term can be twisted and misconstrued, particularly by people who take things said to them literally or see everything in black and white terms. It is not a phrase I'd want to hear trotted out in front of children for instance, they may be/have any of the things we have discussed previously in this thread, but we should never encourage them through the words we choose to use to feel that their body could be anything other than their own.

In that case, you're not using that phrase in the way that the vast majority would understand it. That phrase has been used a lot in reference to people who are born physically one gender but firmly believe they are the other gender. It's a phrase that they use themselves, to describe the way they feel about their bodies.

Edit: worth noting, that some in the transgender community are moving away from the phrase. Doing a little of what I sometimes preach and self-educating a little as we go in this thread .

I agree that we should find a better way of expressing it that is based in reality rather than an idea.

 

[Mellotron]

I'm just blown away that we've got to over 140 posts without this thread being locked.

 

[Right Brain Ronnie]

Men play against men
Ladies play against ladies
Trans play against Trans

Problem sorted, everyone should be happy?

 

[jcdenton08]

It really isn't going to run, let alone run and run.

Disagree. Perhaps not this story specifically, but this is going to happen frequently going forward.

 

[jcdenton08]

He's proven that he's not time and again - usually on this type of subject. This is a hateful thread, posted to be hateful and knowing what would follow.

Is it not a newsworthy story about football, which is absolutely ripe for discussion and debate on an internet football forum?

The policing of discussion is very troubling, not least because anyone can attempt to shut down conversation with a simple and not always entirely in good faith “that’s hateful”.

This is a subject we’re seeing all across sport and one which will need new Laws for each respective sport to be addressed, in line with the changing times.

The real villains are those who attempt to bully and silence anyone discussing topics which make them uncomfortable. They’re the real transphobes/sexists/racists/homophobes.

 

[Mellotron]

Men play against men
Ladies play against ladies
Trans play against Trans

Problem sorted, everyone should be happy?

Trans want to be recognised as the gender they believe they should be, so I'm guessing(?) they wouldn't be happy with that.

Trans women believe themselves to be women. They don't want to be put in a separate category. As far as I can tell. And obviously they don't all speak with one voice.

See? It's complicated.

 

[Audax]

So how do you decide who fits in a womens sports team?

That's the multi-million £ question. And not one I have an answer to myself. Unfortunately, I don't think any of the "answers" that have been tried so far are going to last the distance either. Largely because there isn't a large enough body of scientific research, and the solutions being tried are therefore largely opinion / ideology driven. There's no consistency in approach, which just makes it all ripe for conflict.

Ultimately there needs to be some scientific work done. Multiple studies that prove, one way or another, whether a man who has transitioned retains any unfair advantages over women they might compete with in a sport. Would need to be multiple studies, to the point of it becoming "scientific consensus" that can be pointed to and used to educate and build guidance. Unfortunately, I don't think it will ever get the funding to allow the consensus to be reached any time soon. The vast majority of the studies done won't be for sporting reasons, they'll be for other (eg the military ones cited by @Hamilton ) reasons and may or may not translate to sports.

However, if we do get a body of study evidence that suggests that, say, 5 years of hormone treatment results in a trans-woman being on a "level" playing field with a natural woman, then IMO they should at that point get the go-ahead to compete in women's sport, under the proviso that they continue to show that they are maintaining their transitioned status.

And vice versa, if rigorous science shows that a trans-woman retains "unfair" advantages then you need to look at a different solution.

Edit to add:

Maybe the "Olympics" and the "Paralympics" needs a whole new look. Why does the latter need to be separate from the former? Maybe we should have a singular event (ok, it'd run longer, but maybe the benefits outweigh the cons) that focuses on broad-spectrum inclusivity and opens up the possibility of trans-specific categories?

 

[dsr-burnley]

That's the multi-million £ question. And not one I have an answer to myself. Unfortunately, I don't think any of the "answers" that have been tried so far are going to last the distance either. Largely because there isn't a large enough body of scientific research, and the solutions being tried are therefore largely opinion / ideology driven. There's no consistency in approach, which just makes it all ripe for conflict.

Ultimately there needs to be some scientific work done. Multiple studies that prove, one way or another, whether a man who has transitioned retains any unfair advantages over women they might compete with in a sport. Would need to be multiple studies, to the point of it becoming "scientific consensus" that can be pointed to and used to educate and build guidance. Unfortunately, I don't think it will ever get the funding to allow the consensus to be reached any time soon. The vast majority of the studies done won't be for sporting reasons, they'll be for other (eg the military ones cited by @Hamilton ) reasons and may or may not translate to sports.

However, if we do get a body of study evidence that suggests that, say, 5 years of hormone treatment results in a trans-woman being on a "level" playing field with a natural woman, then IMO they should at that point get the go-ahead to compete in women's sport, under the proviso that they continue to show that they are maintaining their transitioned status.

And vice versa, if rigorous science shows that a trans-woman retains "unfair" advantages then you need to look at a different solution.

Little scientific work is needed to prove that an average sized man, after undergoing all the hormone treatment for as long as it takes, will be an above-average sized woman. Height and reach is an advantage in most sports.

To an extent, in lower level sports and if it is true and can be proved that a hormone-treated trans woman has absolutely no advantage in strength over a traditional woman, then it perhaps doesn't matter so much whether they play male or female sports. Perhaps. But not at professional level. Professional sport is all about level, drug-free playing fields.

 

[dsr-burnley]

Trans want to be recognised as the gender they believe they should be, so I'm guessing(?) they wouldn't be happy with that.

Trans women believe themselves to be women. They don't want to be put in a separate category. As far as I can tell. And obviously they don't all speak with one voice.

See? It's complicated.

They have to be put in a separate category, to some extent. For example, medical. Prostate cancer screenings are men-only, cervical cancer screenings are women-only. Should a trans woman with a prostate go to a cervical cancer screening secure in the knowledge that as a woman she doesn't need prostate screening? Or should she accept that she is in a separate category?

 

[hart's shirt]

...if we do get a body of study evidence that suggests that, say, 5 years of hormone treatment results in a trans-woman being on a "level" playing field with a natural woman, then IMO they should at that point get the go-ahead to compete in women's sport, under the proviso that they continue to show that they are maintaining their transitioned status.

And vice versa, if rigorous science shows that a trans-woman retains "unfair" advantages then you need to look at a different solution.

In the first hypothetical scenario, I'd be in general agreement with some flexibility about the length of time possibly differing from sport to sport.

In the second, the starting point would ensure that women's sport remains exclusively the domain of biological females before other considerations.

Either way, the burden of proof to ensure sporting fairness remains with those who want change.

Science alone should determine this, not ideologies and viewpoints held.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Disagree. Perhaps not this story specifically, but this is going to happen frequently going forward.

Yes. You will see I recanted later. I should probably delete the old post.

 

[Shaktarman]

Trans want to be recognised as the gender they believe they should be, so I'm guessing(?) they wouldn't be happy with that.

Trans women believe themselves to be women. They don't want to be put in a separate category. As far as I can tell. And obviously they don't all speak with one voice.

See? It's complicated.

They may believe it but it doesn’t mean society and others have to go along with it. Freedom of speech is key and we can’t just go along with everything these days or it will ruin life and language as we know it. The Sutton manager is a male whether they like it or not. They are not a female or women for most people (with a normal brain). They are a trans women - that’s fine, but do not insult our language by calling men and women cis this or that. Luckily most people know where the line is imo.

 

[Right Brain Ronnie]

Crocodile Dundee wouldn't have any issues in policing the ladies football match.

 

[fly high]

Maybe time to set up some Trans Leagues ? At least in London and surrounding areas there would be demand you think.

Didn't they introduce a trans category for the swimming world championship and no one entered.

 

[cjd]

Didn't they introduce a trans category for the swimming world championship and no one entered.

Hold my beer......How much is a Gold medal worth ?

 

[Right Brain Ronnie]

Trans want to be recognised as the gender they believe they should be, so I'm guessing(?) they wouldn't be happy with that.

Trans women believe themselves to be women. They don't want to be put in a separate category. As far as I can tell. And obviously they don't all speak with one voice.

See? It's complicated

They must realise they have a massive advantage in sports, hence why they want to play against other ladies. They just can't be allowed to play against people who were born female.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

They may believe it but it doesn’t mean society and others have to go along with it. Freedom of speech is key and we can’t just go along with everything these days or it will ruin life and language as we know it. The Sutton manager is a male whether they like it or not. They are not a female or women for most people (with a normal brain). They are a trans women - that’s fine, but do not insult our language by calling men and women cis this or that. Luckily most people know where the line is imo.

Sorry, but the few trans women I know (one is an academic) expect to be treated as women, not 'trans women'.

Admittedly, as someone who doesn't pinch women's arses, stare at cleavage, or refer to women as darlin' or love, this amounts to little more than using female pronouns (if that's what they want, and my academic colleagues who have a preference reveal this in their email signature).

And I can think of someone as female without agonizing over whether their vagina is equipped to deliver an infant.

Yes, it is complicated, but it isn't rocket science.

 

[carlzeiss]

Men play against men
Ladies play against ladies
Trans play against Trans

Problem sorted, everyone should be happy?

How about the non binary , don't they deserve a league of their own ?

 

[Right Brain Ronnie]

How about the non binary , don't they deserve a league of their own ?

Yep, give them a league too.

 

[Shaktarman]

Sorry, but the few trans women I know (one is an academic) expect to be treated as women, not 'trans women'.

Admittedly, as someone who doesn't pinch women's arses, stare at cleavage, or refer to women as darlin' or love, this amounts to little more than using female pronouns (if that's what they want, and my academic colleagues who have a preference reveal this in their email signature).

And I can think of someone as female without agonizing over whether their vagina is equipped to deliver an infant.

Yes, it is complicated, but it isn't rocket science.

So you’re fine with them using the female toilets and changing rooms are you? Or taking the places of actual women in sport?

Ps - The trans women I know fully agrees with the statement and acknowledges she’s not a normal women and can’t expect to share private spaces with women for what it’s worth.

PPS - People expect to be treated special all the time - I’d like to be treated like a rockstar when out - life isn’t always fair or simple.