[Football] Sutton United Ladies put their head above the parapet

[Questions]

Lol…..synopsis…..links…thats a bit disingenuous of you Harry….i dont think i need to send you any info re the LGB Alliance ..its all out there and you know that

He’s talking about whether you’ve got any ‘under the counter’ stuff,

 

[Hamilton]

It is true that people have these mental health issues, but 'being born into the wrong body' is an idea not a reality. You are absolutely correct that these people deserve unbiased and non-judgemental psychological support, and medical support if absolutely necessary.

It's not an idea though is it? Not unless you believe people who transition from one sex to another are purely suffering from mental health issues. Geneder dysphoria is real. Sometimes it results in people choosing to transition and sometimes it does not.

 

[LamieRobertson]

Yes, it has been discussed in detailed by the armed forces who need to deter mine the impact on gender treatment and transition for those wishing to fight on the frontline. They have looked at how this affects muscle mass. Some studies (SOME) show differing results as to when people lose muscle mass as the body changes, but all show that there is an equalling of muscle mass over time. The science is there, but the timelines may not be conclusive.

The bigger question is how do we come to accept this culturally and what changes do we make to welcome all types of people and all genders, no matter what your biological sex was (if you had one) at birth.

Essentially, we are all being asked to go through a change, and people hate change - even when it's the right thing to do.

The right thing to do is a matter of opinion…..Blair took us to war because he said it was the ‘’right thing to do’’ (ok i know its an extreme )

 

[PascalGroß Tips]

That may be the case but it takes two to tango and there are activists on both sides.

Personally i am glad there are organisations like the LGB Alliance who challenge some of the ideology spouted by the woke brigade.

Whatever the feelings and arguments are …. i hope that the person involved is looked after with the spotlight being shone on them.

Absolutely. It’s not right when the focus is on an individual. The GK in this scenario should be protected. One issue for me is that some sporting bodies are clear on their position and rules whereas others aren’t - which doesn’t help anyone.

 

[m20gull]

I said 'with impact and traction'.

You support your position that there is a lobby (which I would note only if it has influence and traction) by citing Title IX and flying bats, two things I have never heard of and would imagine most other people reading this thread have ever heard of.

There is a lobby for anything and everything. For it to matter it needs to have impact and traction. There is no suggestion whatsoever that biological males will soon be competing in most or all of women's sport. Anyone pushing for this lacks impact and traction.

Instead it seems that different sporting bodies are largely making decisions on reasonable consideration.

And if the IOC is prioritizing fairness, that's great. That doesn't mean it is lobbying to allow biological men to compete in all women's sport.

There is in fact some nuance in this issue, and the nuance seems to be influencing decisions appropriately, by and large. People may challenge decisions, but that is reasonable due process.

Title IX is American legislation that protects female sports. It used to use a defintion that was based on biological sex but has now been extended to include transgender males.

The Flying Bats are an Australian women's football team that plays with 6 transgender males. Australian legislation is now based on declared gender rather than sex so there is traction in state legislation which the sporting bodiea are unable to resist.

The IOC boxing decision is one where, in the absence of a governing body, inclusion was prioritised over fairness.

As governing bodies research the detail most of them come down on the side of fairness (excluding males where there is advantage) but it's hard work. Triathlon is an interesting one where British Triathlon has a different policy from the world body. So at the Olympics only females could represent GB, not so for other countries.

 

[LamieRobertson]

Absolutely. It’s not right when the focus is on an individual. The GK in this scenario should be protected. One issue for me is that some sporting bodies are clear on their position and rules whereas others aren’t - which doesn’t help anyone.

Thanks for acknowledging my point re the person involved….the ‘gender’ argument seems a controversial topic …..and the individual concerned is often buried in the tirade of arguments and we must be sensitive to this.

Agreed re different set of rules…..for example i think World rugby bans ‘trans from the women’s game and yet in Canada the national body allows it (from my understanding)…ive seen clips of a guy who isn’t even transitioning and who is far superior physically playing in women’s teams

 

[Hamilton]

The right thing to do is a matter of opinion…..Blair took us to war because he said it was the ‘’right thing to do’’ (ok i know its an extreme )

Yes, it's extreme. And without wishing to derail, we all knew it wasn't the right thing to do. It was done to appease the Americans. I was on the anti-war March and I'm still someone who defends Blair's record (aside from Iraq).

Anyhow, the point is, we know action against climate change is right - we don't really want to do it though do we.

 

[LamieRobertson]

Yes, it's extreme. And without wishing to derail, we all knew it wasn't the right thing to do. It was done to appease the Americans. I was on the anti-war March and I'm still someone who defends Blair's record (aside from Iraq).

Anyhow, the point is, we know action against climate change is right - we don't really want to do it though do we.

Yeah it was too extreme, apologies…i won’t post my comments about climate change

 

[SAC]

detail lost in the usual back and forth that it was the Sutton players that didnt want to turn out with the goalkeeper, so they couldn't field a team. a lot of people seem to want to overlook that a large group of women object to transgenderism. they often get called names, forced out of communities or jobs for that view. it's not just an issue drummed up by the Mail and some male right wing warriors.

Is there really a large group of women who object to transgenderism or is it that they object to transgender athletes taking the place of CIS female ones?

 

[Curious Orange]

It's not an idea though is it? Not unless you believe people who transition from one sex to another are purely suffering from mental health issues. Geneder dysphoria is real. Sometimes it results in people choosing to transition and sometimes it does not.

Yes, 'being born into the wrong body' is an idea, not a reality - to change your body at any level that isn't just cosmetic* would involve re-writing your DNA, at which point you are someone else.

Yes, gender dysphoria is a very real condition. Medically transitioning because of it is definitely not something to be done without full psychological support, as it does result in a lifetime of treatment, which nobody should do on a whim.






* that seems a rather glib word to use tbh.

 

[beorhthelm]

Is there really a large group of women who object to transgenderism or is it that they object to transgender athletes taking the place of CIS female ones?

yes, these issues go beyond sport.

 

[Dick Swiveller]

/me Opens this thread expecting it to be about the Crawley Coach/Sutton player who gobbed off on Twitter.

/me When reading this thread

 

[m20gull]

Yes, it has been discussed in detailed by the armed forces who need to deter mine the impact on gender treatment and transition for those wishing to fight on the frontline. They have looked at how this affects muscle mass. Some studies (SOME) show differing results as to when people lose muscle mass as the body changes, but all show that there is an equalling of muscle mass over time. The science is there, but the timelines may not be conclusive.

The bigger question is how do we come to accept this culturally and what changes do we make to welcome all types of people and all genders, no matter what your biological sex was (if you had one) at birth.

Essentially, we are all being asked to go through a change, and people hate change - even when it's the right thing to do.

I'm pretty sure Mustafa was referring to the issue of people being both male and female simultaneously. Hence the rarity. AFAIK there are no such examples but I'm prepared to be wrong.

 

[carlzeiss]

OP in divisive Daily Mail style post shocker. Let's all discuss this tiny tiny issue again that doesn't affect the vast majority of us, that is complex and sensitive and ignore the bigger issues.

Another divisive article in the DM today. By coincidence or is an agenda going on there

First transgender Paralympian reaches 400m semi-finals amid backlash

An athlete who has won 11 national men's titles, qualified for Paralympics 400m women's semi-final at the age of 51 on Monday after finishing second in her opening race of the Games.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[sparkie]

/me Opens this thread expecting it to be about the Crawley Coach/Sutton player who gobbed off on Twitter.

/me When reading this thread

Absolutely.

Time to *ignore thread*.

 

[jackanada]

The IOC boxing decision is one where, in the absence of a governing body, inclusion was prioritised over fairness.

Not really true, the previous Russian run governing body excluded her after she beat a Russian boxer and never disclosed what their new test was and hadn't used it until part way through that competition.
This was just one of many contentious and dubious decisions made by them so they were removed as the governing body. No rules were changed to allow Khelif to compete. That the rules may change in future doesn't change the fact that the decision was entirely fair.

 

[PascalGroß Tips]

Another divisive article in the DM today. By coincidence or is an agenda going on there

First transgender Paralympian reaches 400m semi-finals amid backlash

An athlete who has won 11 national men's titles, qualified for Paralympics 400m women's semi-final at the age of 51 on Monday after finishing second in her opening race of the Games.

www.dailymail.co.uk

You seem to think it's the DM that is the issue - probably because your political views don't align with them.

Sonia Sodha is a big voice on this issue. Does she have an agenda... bearing in mind who she writes for?

 

[m20gull]

Not really true, the previous Russian run governing body excluded her after she beat a Russian boxer and never disclosed what their new test was and hadn't used it until part way through that competition.
This was just one of many contentious and dubious decisions made by them so they were removed as the governing body. No rules were changed to allow Khelif to compete. That the rules may change in future doesn't change the fact that the decision was entirely fair.

That wasn't my perception. The IOC were the ones that stated Khelif was included in the female category under their rules because that is what the passport said.

 

[BadFish]

I haven't read the whole thread but from what I did see it is more big opinons and small qualifications.

I am sure the evidence the FA used t when they decided to register the player has been posted and dissected by both the DM and NSC. Nuance and expert opinion taken into account while sensitively keeping considering those affected by the decision.

 

[hart's shirt]

"Male advantage is created through development and so it is essentially laid down over years and years of exposure to testosterone. The solution that sport has tried to come up with is to say well if the source of that advantage is testosterone then let's lower it and then the athlete is free to compete.

But that doesn’t work because there is an asymmetry there because some of the changes that testosterone causes, like the increased muscle mass, increased strength, the shape and size of the skeleton, those changes don’t go away. There are some, like haemoglobin levels, certain elements of the cardiovascular system that may go away.

But the strength advantages, all the evidence that exists suggests that even when you remove testosterone in an adult those advantages continue to exist in that person. So therefore sport has to realise that it can’t take away that male advantage, reduce it slightly yes, but certainly it doesn't get removed. And the only conclusion you can then draw is that the person still has male advantage even when their testosterone is lower."

Dr. Ross Tucker, Ph.D in Exercise Physiology
https://sportsscientists.com/who-are-we/
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/articles/cpvymmpyjeko