[Football] Sutton United Ladies put their head above the parapet

[Springal]

I do wonder if this footballer and the Olympic boxers, in their own heads, accept they have an advantage. And are maybe just a bit yeah, f*** it, I'm using this to get ahead in my life. Or whether they deny (to themselves) any advantage at all.

Why do you put the footballer and Algerian boxer together?

 

[LamieRobertson]

What's odd about cis? If you are discussing trans compared with not trans then cis is preferable to . . . . . 'normal'

Likewise, on the very rare occasions when I may want to make a distinction between my sexuality and that of a gay man, I may refer to myself as straight. Context. Otherwise I'd never mention it.

I understand your fear of big hairy blokes in drag in your daughters' changing rooms, but there is no need to become agitated by an adjective.

That’s an interesting point you make there Harry….personally I don’t use the term cis and probably never will I just say man....but I can understand your reasoning

 

[clapham_gull]

Ignorant to conflate the Algerian boxer with a trans women - she isn't.

"CIS" is a highly politicised terms and far from neutral.

You aren't allowed nuanced views on this subject anymore, they'll stick you in prison *

(*) metaphorically

 

[tedebear]

Isn’t the issue that we all think sport should be on a level playing field but we now find ourselves being unable to agree what the mechanism is to measure that level playing field? I support everyone’s desire to compete in whatever sport they want, as long as its equitable and safe. Inconsistently applied or unclear eligibility criteria whilst trying to be fully inclusive is actually creating the space for all this division and nastiness…

 

[herecomesaregular]

Why do you put the footballer and Algerian boxer together?

Opponents/teammates pulling out of the contest.

 

[BadFish]

Sorry, but the few trans women I know (one is an academic) expect to be treated as women, not 'trans women'.

Admittedly, as someone who doesn't pinch women's arses, stare at cleavage, or refer to women as darlin' or love, this amounts to little more than using female pronouns (if that's what they want, and my academic colleagues who have a preference reveal this in their email signature).

And I can think of someone as female without agonizing over whether their vagina is equipped to deliver an infant.

Yes, it is complicated, but it isn't rocket science.

We can all manage to refer to people by a preferred shortening/lengthening of their name without decrying the bastardisation of society and language. To me it beggars belief that some people can't refer to people in their preferred pronoun.

How hard is it to make a small change to make someone feel a little more comfortable?

 

[BadFish]

Isn’t the issue that we all think sport should be on a level playing field but we now find ourselves being unable to agree what the mechanism is to measure that level playing field? I support everyone’s desire to compete in whatever sport they want, as long as its equitable and safe. Inconsistently applied or unclear eligibility criteria whilst trying to be fully inclusive is actually creating the space for all this division and nastiness…

Quite, I was playing football against a very tall bloke last night, he used his height to block a number of through balls and shots from me.

Surely there should be a separate category for these tall blokes and their unfair advantage?

Don't get me started on the players that are better than me at football.

 

[BadFish]

How about the non binary , don't they deserve a league of their own ?

And the tall people. Fast People.

 

[herecomesaregular]

We can all manage to refer to people by a preferred shortening/lengthening of their name without decrying the bastardisation of society and language. To me it beggars belief that some people can't refer to people in their preferred pronoun.

How hard is it to make a small change to make someone feel a little more comfortable?

My cousin lived with me for two months and asked to be referred to as they/them and, with the greatest intentions, I was constantly tripping over with it however hard i tried. It was a completely new habit and they would sometimes go ballistic if I messed up. It's ok in an occasional email or someone you don't see often but living with me they were around a lot and actually it wasn't really a "small change" particularly when someone is super sensitive about it (changing language takes time).

 

[Mustafa II]

We definitely need solidarity with women when it comes to m2f trans people wanting to play in the women's sport, and probably some other areas of culture and daily life too.

People born men are more likely to bigger and stronger, it's quite obviously an unfair advantage.

Every single one of us have been born with some kind of disadvantage in life that affects what we can achieve, and unfortunately for m2f trans people, theirs should be being unable to compete in women's sport.

They should be still welcome to play in men's competition, or start their own competitions - but Sutton are absolutely correct with this, it should not be allowed.

 

[BadFish]

My cousin lived with me for two months and asked to be referred to as they/them and, with the greatest intentions, I was constantly tripping over with it however hard i tried. It was a completely new habit and they would sometimes go ballistic if I messed up. It's ok in an occasional email or someone you don't see often but living with me they were around a lot and actually it wasn't really a "small change" particularly when someone is super sentivie about it (changing language takes time).

Yeah it does take time, and understanding this is important. I still trip over this from time to time, as I do calling one of my students Thomas not Tom but a quick apology and correction seems to go a long way.

 

[jackanada]

I think you would be genuinely surprised how much support for the transgender community is out there , there is no agenda against transgender sportspersons .

The problem here as far as i am concerned is purely to protect the rights of female sport , that should be clear to anyone .

It is a great shame that at a time when a fair chunk of the right seem to be gearing up for a final solution that so much energy is wasted by trans activists and those who are actually allies of them arguing on the minor point of participation in women's sport at elite level.
If the eventual decision is that there can be no trans participation in higher level women's sports that will be devastating to many, but even as a trans rights supporter I don't think that is discrimination. Everyone is excluded from some activities by accident of birth.

 

[jackanada]

Yep, give them a league too.

How about the non binary , don't they deserve a league of their own ?

Just don't give them two leagues, because that would be binary.

 

[Baldseagull]

Nobody is 'born into the wrong body'. Your body is what you are born with, what you live with, and what you'll die with, irrespective of how you feel about it, present it, or surgically change it.

So a trans man should be playing women's football?

 

[Mustafa II]

So a trans man should be playing women's football?

If a "cis" woman decided to treat herself with male hormones in order to be better and stronger at the sport she was competing in, should that be allowed?

 

[dsr-burnley]

So a trans man should be playing women's football?

Any person who takes drugs to make himself or herself stronger is banned from professional sport at least, and quite possibly from amateur sport as well. Therefore a trans man would not be allowed to play women's sport under the drugs rules, whatever he, she or they would like.

 

[dsr-burnley]

I have made myself clear about sport. As I and others have explained, a trans woman should not be able to compete against biological women (note, not 'normal' women - doh! My missus would give you a dry slap if you called her 'normal') if they have a biological advantage.

Determining whether they have an advantage is not necessarily straightforward but, by and large it probably is straightforward. One could easily use normative statistics on body shape, reach, muscle mass etc., to determine if a trans woman is comfortably within two standard deviations of the mean, or not. Other definitions of 'normative' are available..

There is literally no difficulty in assessing whether being tall is an advantage for a goalkeeper. It is an advantage, full stop. There is no scientific study that could prove otherwise.

An man of average size and strength cannot become a woman of average size and strength simply by taking drugs and having operations (unless Procrustean operations are being tried!)

 

[OzMike]

Maybe the transgenders should have their own games.
Seems to be enough of them nowadays.

 

[LamieRobertson]

We can all manage to refer to people by a preferred shortening/lengthening of their name without decrying the bastardisation of society and language. To me it beggars belief that some people can't refer to people in their preferred pronoun.

How hard is it to make a small change to make someone feel a little more comfortable?

No thanks I’m not playing the preferred pro noun game ….doesnt stop them using it that’s up to them..but I’m not joining in…so I’m beggaring your belief

 

[The Fifth Column]

Still waiting for someone to justify and explain why it only affects womens sport? Can one of the apologists explain why mens sport isnt affected by trans athletes. I mean they have all the hormone replacement therapy and treatments and presumably the advantages of now being men, surely they'd want to test their new found manhood on the sporting stage?