[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[Kinky Gerbil]

It's a quick response, and presumably much if not all of that was decided before Trump pulled the plug on supplies.

All words at the moment, years of Governments pulling resources across Europe has left us completely exposed, would have hoped after Trump getting into the White House in 2016 would have seen the mindset change.

A United Europe should not be held hostage by the USA, but we are

 

[GoldstoneVintage]

It’s Up to Europe Now

Can Europe rise to the occasion?

open.substack.com

 

[raymondo]

I am sparing a thought for our European political and defence leaders who need solid plans to look after Ukraine and the whole of Europe, whilst walking a diplomatic tightrope with the US when they'd far sooner tell Trump, Vance and Musk to go fxck themselves.

 

[peterward]

It’s Up to Europe Now

Can Europe rise to the occasion?

open.substack.com

"If Trump nonetheless tries to pressure Europe into abandoning Ukraine, say by imposing tariffs on European goods (which seems to be his only tactic), someone will have to tell him, “Sir, you don’t have the cards.” The EU exports less than 3 percent of its GDP to the United States. And there’s already a public backlash against even the threat of tariffs, as well as the absence of any visible effort on Trump’s part to make good on his campaign promises to bring down grocery prices.

In short, Europe shouldn’t be afraid of Donald Trump. If it wants to save democracy in Ukraine, it can.

And it should. If Ukraine falls, it won’t be the last target. And the rise of right-wing extremist parties in some European nations should make supporters of democracy even more determined to counter anything that might make people believe that these parties represent the future, which means among other things denying Putin anything that can be spun as a victory.

Like tens of millions of Americans, I hate the fact that we need to appeal to foreign leaders to do the right thing, because we know that our own president won’t. But this is Europe’s moment, and we can only hope that the continent’s leaders seize it."

 

[Giraffe]

When has Western Europe ever won a fight without the US help. Not for several hundred years when the world was a very different place. We need them. That’s the reality.

 

[peterward]

When has Western Europe ever won a fight without the US help. Not for several hundred years when the world was a very different place. We need them. That’s the reality.

We stood alone in beginning of WW2, without US help in fight. And whislt their help was in end significant.....the Nazi colluders, turned enemies, Russia..... were as significant.

But this isn't a world war. Its a severely depleted Russia and Europe could and would beat them easily if they hadn't hollowed out defence and simply put faith in US protection.

 

[Ethelwulf]

When has Western Europe ever won a fight without the US help. Not for several hundred years when the world was a very different place. We need them. That’s the reality.

No we don’t . Don’t underestimate Europe we could beat the Russians without America help but knowing that nut job Trump he would help the Russians

 

[SouthSaxon]

We stood alone in beginning of WW2, without US help in fight. And whislt their help was in end significant.....the Nazi colluders, turned enemies, Russia..... were as significant.

But this isn't a world war. Its a severely depleted Russia and Europe could and would beat them easily if they hadn't hollowed out defence and simply put faith in US protection.

And in WWI the US involvement was minimal and not the main driver in Allied victory.

Another key point is that both of these were wars between European factions. A united Europe is well placed to deter Russia and avoid further wars if they maintain the current urgency. This means rearming ASAP. It also means removing Orban’s ability to obstruct and veto.

 

[Giraffe]

We stood alone in beginning of WW2, without US help in fight. And whislt their help was in end significant.....the Nazi colluders, turned enemies, Russia..... were as significant.

But this isn't a world war. Its a severely depleted Russia and Europe could and would beat them easily if they hadn't hollowed out defence and simply put faith in US protection.

Yes agreed. But without the US we could not have won. And the Russian help (or Hitler mistake of attacking them) helped a good degree too. But that also makes the point that you’re a fool to mess with Russia. I just don’t see how Europe can provide what the US can.

Fundamentally I don’t think for a minute that the US will long term keep out of this - this is all about making sure Europe pulls its fair weight as so many countries have not been doing so.

 

[beorhthelm]

Yes agreed. But without the US we could not have won. And the Russian help (or Hitler mistake of attacking them) helped a good degree too. But that also makes the point that you’re a fool to mess with Russia. I just don’t see how Europe can provide what the US can.

Fundamentally I don’t think for a minute that the US will long term keep out of this - this is all about making sure Europe pulls its fair weight as so many countries have not been doing so.

this is all very silly. the WWII reference shows Russia, European nations and US were needed to defeat Germany. it follows that with Germany in Western Europe group would confidently hold it's own against Russia. even more so now they are weak military, consuming their best in a poorly faught war of attrition. the only advantage they have over western europe is an appetite for engaging in war, devoting their economy and manpower to that.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

No we don’t . Don’t underestimate Europe we could beat the Russians without America help but knowing that nut job Trump he would help the Russians

How many working Tanks do Europe have? The UK have 40

Someone on the radio claimed Russia make as many bullets in 2 weeks than the UK do in a year

Plus they don't care about how many men they lose.

Is there even a United plan other than "we stand with Ukraine"

It's all so depressing

 

[SouthSaxon]

Yes agreed. But without the US we could not have won. And the Russian help (or Hitler mistake of attacking them) helped a good degree too. But that also makes the point that you’re a fool to mess with Russia. I just don’t see how Europe can provide what the US can.

The big lesson of Germany’s invasion of Russia was that it’s foolish to overcommit and overextend beyond the limits of supply & logistics.

Thankfully, nobody is talking about Europe beating a path to Moscow.

Fundamentally I don’t think for a minute that the US will long term keep out of this - this is all about making sure Europe pulls its fair weight as so many countries have not been doing so.

There’s too much circumstantial evidence for my liking that, if they were to pick sides right now, it wouldn’t be with Europe.

Europe needs to buy enough time for the US to (hopefully) sort itself out.

 

[SouthSaxon]

How many working Tanks do Europe have? The UK have 40

Someone on the radio claimed Russia make as many bullets in 2 weeks than the UK do in a year

Plus they don't care about how many men they lose.

Is there even a United plan other than "we stand with Ukraine"

It's all so depressing

Hence the urgent need to rearm now without relying on US forces.

Yes, Putin is happy to use the meat grinder but he doesn’t have an infinite supply and it’ll get used up faster.

 

[raymondo]

It’s Up to Europe Now

Can Europe rise to the occasion?

open.substack.com

And another reminder therein that US's military aid to Ukraine amounts to 65billion dollars.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

Hence the urgent need to rearm now without relying on US forces.

Yes, Putin is happy to use the meat grinder but he doesn’t have an infinite supply and it’ll get used up faster.

His friends in North Korea will pop in a few cannon fodder

 

[peterward]

His friends in North Korea will pop in a few cannon fodder

Russia is bringing more N Koreans into the fight and Trump removes Ukraines means of defence and he still tries to sell this as advancing peace.

 

[WATFORD zero]

When has Western Europe ever won a fight without the US help. Not for several hundred years when the world was a very different place. We need them. That’s the reality.

A country that has existed for c250 years and up until 150 years ago was fighting amongst itself has been helping out Western Europe for Several hundred years ?

I'm sorry but where do you get this bollox from

 

[peterward]

 

[peterward]

Ukraine can still win.

 

[peterward]

Positive from a Republican to Politico.


Lawmakers from both parties expressed concern about Trump’s move (to cut off aid) on Monday evening.

“Too bad Iran, North Korea and China are not pausing their military aid and economic support,” said Rep. Don Bacon, a Nebraska Republican, to POLITICO. “There is an invader and a victim, there is a democracy and a dictatorship, there is a country who wants to be part of the West and one who hates the West. We should be unambiguously for the good side.”