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[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)



Eric the meek

Fiveways Wilf
NSC Patron
Aug 24, 2020
7,454
Scholz is a funny mix: appeasing statements sometimes, then happy to be the guy making this announcement.
Not unsurprisingly, the west, or at least Europe seems to be acting in concert. This from Scholz, following Cameron's announcement giving Ukraine the go-ahead to use British weapons on Russian targets inside and outside Ukraine, both after Macron had been 'mulling over' boots on the ground in Ukraine.

I assume it is all designed to crank up the pressure on Putin, which he mentioned in his inauguration speech:

'We will see if they continue to halt the development of our country and continue to put pressure on our country, or look for ways to cooperate with us.'
 




raymondo

Well-known member
Apr 26, 2017
7,652
Wiltshire
Not unsurprisingly, the west, or at least Europe seems to be acting in concert. This from Scholz, following Cameron's announcement giving Ukraine the go-ahead to use British weapons on Russian targets inside and outside Ukraine, both after Macron had been 'mulling over' boots on the ground in Ukraine.

I assume it is all designed to crank up the pressure on Putin, which he mentioned in his inauguration speech:

'We will see if they continue to halt the development of our country and continue to put pressure on our country, or look for ways to cooperate with us.'
Yes, good point, Europe clearly acting in concert on this.

The only thing that's halted the development of Russia is of course Putin's war and domestic restrictions.
Although by 'development' he probably means 'expansion by invasion'.
 




Eric the meek

Fiveways Wilf
NSC Patron
Aug 24, 2020
7,454
Here is Sky's report on Putin's speech:

'Russia willing to work with the West, says Putin

Taking aim at the West, Vladimir Putin says Moscow is not refusing a dialogue with Western countries.
He says Russia is ready to become an "honest" partner with anybody who is willing.
"We are not even refusing the dialogue with Western countries," he said during his inauguration speech in Moscow.
"We will see if they continue to halt the development of our country and continue to put pressure on our country, or look for ways to cooperate with us."

While his main audience is the domestic Russian audience, (he is trying to come across as presidential, 'honest' and seeking 'cooperation' in the face of hostile western countries), there may be a not-so-hidden message in it.

Is he signalling an 'honest' path to peace? Is he admitting the west is halting the development of Russia? Is he tacitly acknowledging the pressure Russia is under? Is he asking for cooperation?

Think back to the speech by Maria Zakharova: 'Russia says it's ready to review "serious" peace proposals with Ukraine'.

Obviously any peace proposal from Russia would be absurd and unworkable. That's a given. But is it conceivable, that Putin's Russia is looking for a way out?

Russia will no doubt be tired of this war, just as Ukraine is.
 


fly high

Well-known member
Aug 25, 2011
1,792
in a house
Here is Sky's report on Putin's speech:

'Russia willing to work with the West, says Putin

Taking aim at the West, Vladimir Putin says Moscow is not refusing a dialogue with Western countries.
He says Russia is ready to become an "honest" partner with anybody who is willing.
"We are not even refusing the dialogue with Western countries," he said during his inauguration speech in Moscow.
"We will see if they continue to halt the development of our country and continue to put pressure on our country, or look for ways to cooperate with us."

While his main audience is the domestic Russian audience, (he is trying to come across as presidential, 'honest' and seeking 'cooperation' in the face of hostile western countries), there may be a not-so-hidden message in it.

Is he signalling an 'honest' path to peace? Is he admitting the west is halting the development of Russia? Is he tacitly acknowledging the pressure Russia is under? Is he asking for cooperation?

Think back to the speech by Maria Zakharova: 'Russia says it's ready to review "serious" peace proposals with Ukraine'.

Obviously any peace proposal from Russia would be absurd and unworkable. That's a given. But is it conceivable, that Putin's Russia is looking for a way out?

Russia will no doubt be tired of this war, just as Ukraine is.
He has a very easy way out. Withdraw all his troops & go back to the original 2014 borders. That will show he is really serious about peace.

I know can't, won't happen, it would mean he has to accept defeat.
 




Mellotron

I've asked for soup
Jul 2, 2008
32,520
Brighton
He has a very easy way out. Withdraw all his troops & go back to the original 2014 borders. That will show he is really serious about peace.

I know can't, won't happen, it would mean he has to accept defeat.
How is that in any way easy? If he did that, he'd be dead within 48 hours.

Completely signing his own death warrant, and would be insane to do it.
 


fly high

Well-known member
Aug 25, 2011
1,792
in a house
How is that in any way easy? If he did that, he'd be dead within 48 hours.

Completely signing his own death warrant, and would be insane to do it.
Which is why I said; can't, won't happen.
 


Dibdab

Well-known member
Sep 28, 2021
1,094
Western media angles aside, Ukraine are obviously in trouble and looking like they could lose the war, hence the new Bn's of funding and weapons being sent over to avert disaster. This is stalemate, and I don't think Ukraine can ever win under the current strategy as only Russia can continue to sustain the current approach of attrition. Surely time to accept another way must be found that allows each side to take some sense of victory/concession back to their side and save years more of bloodshed and bns of our taxes!
 






raymondo

Well-known member
Apr 26, 2017
7,652
Wiltshire
The first 4 minutes of Davydov's vlog are interesting. Seems that Ukrainian boat drones got into (the highly protected...) Sevastopol harbour, although they didn't find a juicy target...this time.
Also, some video evidence of one of these boat drones having anti aircraft missiles (?) mounted on the back.
 


sparkie

Well-known member
Jul 17, 2003
13,322
Hove
Western media angles aside, Ukraine are obviously in trouble and looking like they could lose the war, hence the new Bn's of funding and weapons being sent over to avert disaster. This is stalemate, and I don't think Ukraine can ever win under the current strategy as only Russia can continue to sustain the current approach of attrition. Surely time to accept another way must be found that allows each side to take some sense of victory/concession back to their side and save years more of bloodshed and bns of our taxes!
That won't save years more bloodshed.

It would just create a forever kill zone for Russian invaders along with permanent sanctions on Russia.

The only viable long term solution is Russia leaving the 2014 borders of Ukraine. The earlier they do it, the better for Russia.
 




essbee1

Well-known member
Jun 25, 2014
4,825
Western media angles aside, Ukraine are obviously in trouble and looking like they could lose the war, hence the new Bn's of funding and weapons being sent over to avert disaster. This is stalemate, and I don't think Ukraine can ever win under the current strategy as only Russia can continue to sustain the current approach of attrition. Surely time to accept another way must be found that allows each side to take some sense of victory/concession back to their side and save years more of bloodshed and bns of our taxes!
You contradict yourself in the first two sentences.
 


Eric the meek

Fiveways Wilf
NSC Patron
Aug 24, 2020
7,454
Western media angles aside, Ukraine are obviously in trouble and looking like they could lose the war, hence the new Bn's of funding and weapons being sent over to avert disaster. This is stalemate, and I don't think Ukraine can ever win under the current strategy as only Russia can continue to sustain the current approach of attrition. Surely time to accept another way must be found that allows each side to take some sense of victory/concession back to their side and save years more of bloodshed and bns of our taxes!
Russia - or to be more precise Putinism - believes Ukraine should not exist. That Ukraine should be part of Russia. He said that prior to the invasion, and he meant it. Putin believes all the former nations in the Soviet sphere of influence, should be a part of Russia.

Giving Russia a sense of victory will not save more years of bloodshed. On the contrary, it will achieve the direct, polar opposite. More bloodshed. It will embolden Putin (or Putin's successor) to attack other nations that Russia believes should be a part of Russia.

A sense of defeat will not stop Russian imperialism either, but it will slow it down. Make it think twice.

What - may - stop Russian imperialism is an impenetrable defensive barrier, a defensive alliance called NATO. The 'expansion' of NATO was cited as a reason for the invasion. This is an important lesson of history. It is a direct reason why Sweden and Finland have joined NATO since the invasion.
 


beorhthelm

A. Virgo, Football Genius
Jul 21, 2003
36,063
the comments from Putin sound like nothing more than a leader placing blame on the other side. the West wont talk, it's all their fault. the only chink in the display is the acknowledgment of not developing, there's obviously difficulties and better to say they are others fault.

that said, if Russia does want an exit what is going to be a possible solution? something will have to be conceded to end the conflict.
 




dangull

Well-known member
Feb 24, 2013
5,179
Obviously not condoning Russia's invasion and this horrible war, but I am confused why after the break up of the Soviet Union and the victory of the Cold War NATO still decided to expand towards Russia when the reason it was formed was no longer there or a threat. Putin who was at an earlier time quite friendly with the Western countries even asked maybe in a not serious or ironic way if Russia could now join NATO.
Maybe this situation wouldn't have arrived if NATO decided to stay as it was in 1989.
 


Nobby

Well-known member
Sep 29, 2007
2,905
Obviously not condoning Russia's invasion and this horrible war, but I am confused why after the break up of the Soviet Union and the victory of the Cold War NATO still decided to expand towards Russia when the reason it was formed was no longer there or a threat. Putin who was at an earlier time quite friendly with the Western countries even asked maybe in a not serious or ironic way if Russia could now join NATO.
Maybe this situation wouldn't have arrived if NATO decided to stay as it was in 1989.
Putin has proved himself to be this century’s Hitler.
 


chickens

Have you considered masterly inactivity?
NSC Patron
Oct 12, 2022
2,788
Obviously not condoning Russia's invasion and this horrible war, but I am confused why after the break up of the Soviet Union and the victory of the Cold War NATO still decided to expand towards Russia when the reason it was formed was no longer there or a threat. Putin who was at an earlier time quite friendly with the Western countries even asked maybe in a not serious or ironic way if Russia could now join NATO.
Maybe this situation wouldn't have arrived if NATO decided to stay as it was in 1989.

Possibly, but on the other hand, perhaps it was only the expansion of NATO that held Putin from making a move as long as he did. We can all play “what if” but it’s the reality here and now we have to deal with.

NATO is a defensive alliance, I can understand any country within Putin’s reach and not willing to be controlled via Moscow seeking its protection.
 


The Clamp

Well-known member
Jan 11, 2016
26,411
West is BEST
Here is Sky's report on Putin's speech:

'Russia willing to work with the West, says Putin

Taking aim at the West, Vladimir Putin says Moscow is not refusing a dialogue with Western countries.
He says Russia is ready to become an "honest" partner with anybody who is willing.
"We are not even refusing the dialogue with Western countries," he said during his inauguration speech in Moscow.
"We will see if they continue to halt the development of our country and continue to put pressure on our country, or look for ways to cooperate with us."

While his main audience is the domestic Russian audience, (he is trying to come across as presidential, 'honest' and seeking 'cooperation' in the face of hostile western countries), there may be a not-so-hidden message in it.

Is he signalling an 'honest' path to peace? Is he admitting the west is halting the development of Russia? Is he tacitly acknowledging the pressure Russia is under? Is he asking for cooperation?

Think back to the speech by Maria Zakharova: 'Russia says it's ready to review "serious" peace proposals with Ukraine'.

Obviously any peace proposal from Russia would be absurd and unworkable. That's a given. But is it conceivable, that Putin's Russia is looking for a way out?

Russia will no doubt be tired of this war, just as Ukraine is.
I think we can take any speech from Russia, especially those aimed at the West as nothing more than playing the Statesman. Posturing.

Speeches that are written in minutes and mean nothing.

Russia will continue to invade other nations and nothing will stop Putin short of brutal and overwhelming military action.

Personally, I think anyone who doesn’t see that is kidding themselves.
 




Eric the meek

Fiveways Wilf
NSC Patron
Aug 24, 2020
7,454
Obviously not condoning Russia's invasion and this horrible war, but I am confused why after the break up of the Soviet Union and the victory of the Cold War NATO still decided to expand towards Russia when the reason it was formed was no longer there or a threat. Putin who was at an earlier time quite friendly with the Western countries even asked maybe in a not serious or ironic way if Russia could now join NATO.
Maybe this situation wouldn't have arrived if NATO decided to stay as it was in 1989.
Are you attempting to rewrite history? The passage of time has shown that the reason NATO was formed is still there, and was still there all the while Putin was pretending to be friendly with western countries.

Your argument of further nations not joining NATO beyond 1989 on the off chance that a tyrannical control freak in sole unchallenged charge of a nuclear super power, would turn out to be a benign benefactor, doesn't really have legs does it?
 


essbee1

Well-known member
Jun 25, 2014
4,825
Obviously not condoning Russia's invasion and this horrible war, but I am confused why after the break up of the Soviet Union and the victory of the Cold War NATO still decided to expand towards Russia when the reason it was formed was no longer there or a threat. Putin who was at an earlier time quite friendly with the Western countries even asked maybe in a not serious or ironic way if Russia could now join NATO.
Maybe this situation wouldn't have arrived if NATO decided to stay as it was in 1989.
Also, Putin didn't suddenly wake up one day and think "wouldn't it be nice to have all those countries back under our control - let's invade one". It's his long-held belief. So your argument falls down a bit there too.
 


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