[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[JC Footy Genius]

As one of the opportunities that could truly bring NSC together, I hope desperation doesn't nobody encourage someone to make a complete and utter fool of themselves ... oh

Would you like to try that sentence again in English? ... and please keep on topic and avoid your relentless trolling obsession with certain posters who have continually humiliated you in the past

 

[WATFORD zero]

There are some folk, EDIT, we can always rely upon.

I am so grateful to yourself, JCFG and a couple of others that we have Johnson and crew in place to handle this, Could you imagine the alternative if you hadn't realised what was best for Britian

 

[WATFORD zero]

Would you like to try that sentence again in English? ... and please keep on topic and avoid your relentless trolling obsession with certain posters who have continually humiliated you in the past

I know really shouldn't point out that, unlike yourself, [MENTION=35196]Is it PotG?[/MENTION], [MENTION=11191]Pretty pink fairy[/MENTION] and [MENTION=534]Chicken Run[/MENTION], I've never been banned for anything, and certainly not for trolling. But it is the weekend, and I have things to do, so fill your boots with your buddies

 

[JC Footy Genius]

I know really shouldn't point out that, unlike yourself, [MENTION=35196]Is it PotG?[/MENTION], [MENTION=11191]Pretty pink fairy[/MENTION] and [MENTION=534]Chicken Run[/MENTION], I've never been banned for anything, and certainly not for trolling. But it is the weekend, and I have things to do, so fill your boots with your buddies

Bye bye ..

 

[pb21]

As one of the opportunities that could truly bring NSC together, I hope desperation doesn't nobody encourage someone to make a complete and utter fool of themselves ... oh

I've just come on this thread, given the latest 'rumours' and see see that someone is posting about Corbyn of all things. I'm genuinely astounded, and that doesn't happen often, particularly with NSC posts

Anyway, back to reality, this definitely seems to be heading in the wrong direction. Unfortunately I can't see a relatively minor outcome if this does kick off, could have very significant ramifications, hopefully I'm very wrong.

 

[dazzer6666]

Clueless muppet, parroting the bollox you watch on RT as you smoke the funny stuff.

Ive a ukrainian wife, my mother in law lives 10km from the front line in the most eastern suburb of Mariupol. She is a friend (having taught her English) to the wife of the deputy head of the SBU, and also friends with a former deputy (MP) previously in the Verkhvona Rada.
I know the country and its politics inside and out. Ive seen the devastation first hand of the Russian invasion of Donbass where over 15000 have been killed. Ive been many times through the once beautiful airport in Donetsk, now a ruin because of one man.

It was 100% a natural and organic revolution against a devastatingly corrupt Russian puppet Yanukovych, he agreed to move towards the EU which was still the majority opinion in the divided country, then reneged under pressure from Moscow to dump that aspiration, which caused the backlash.

Would the west prefer a western leaning government to a Moscow leaning one, thats obvious, but any talk of it being a western Coup is utter bollox. It was a civilian uprising.

During the totally corrupt tenure of Yanukovich his totally corrupt government expropriated countless businesses, he was called "the sultan", and was following the Putin playbook of killing or locking up opposition figures or outspoken journalists, the corrupt courts handing out kangaroo sentences and massive schemes of theft from state ministries. It was the most corrupt of any Ukrainian Presidency to date and the people knew it and experienced it. I was in Kyiv in 2014 just as Maidan started, I know people who were on Maidan and they are well informed and are sick of the endemic corruption. They reject Putins view of a corrupt subserviant Ukraine under Russias heel.

And this in essense is the real issue. It has nothing to do with any threat whatsoever of Ukraine towards Russia, there is none. Putin harks on about Ukraine and Russia being one people and brother nations, but it was Russia that banned the use of the Ukrainian langauge, It was Mosocw that caused the Holodomor of the 1930's, where over 3 million Ukrainians starved to death. It was the soviets who executed Ukrainians, whilst they had a cosy deal with Hitler to carve up territory, before he turned on Russia.

Roll forward to the modern day and its Russia that has forcibly removed the ethnic turkic people in Crimea, that has stolen Crimea and locks up Ukrainians. It is Russia that has armed and devastated the now lawless puppet states the DNR/LNR and yet they complain of their security concerns?.

Lest anyone forget that after the collapse of the Soviet Union, Ukraine was the 3rd largest nuclear power and under international pressure it [stupidly] agreed to give up all of its nuclear weapons to be decommissioned for an iron clad security protection agreement, that its territorial integrity would be respected and preserved in exchange for laying down its nuclear arsenal. That agreement the Budapest memorandum of 1994 was agreed and signed by Russia, The US, the UK. It is Russia that has violated the security of Ukraine not the other way around, It is Russia that has stolen territory and killed 1000's of Ukrainian civilians, not Ukraine, not the US, UK or NATO

And why? its has nothing to do with any risk or threats that Ukraine or NATO may pose to the Russian Federation, that is horse shit, a red herring. Russia could join NATO (a mainly defensive grouping) if it wanted, nor do the ridiculous requests to roll back eastern european soveriegn countries choice to join NATO (with possibly the biggest reason being to escape Russia neo colonialism and agression).

It has everything to do with Putins own personal preservation, one the biggest threats to his corrupt, murderous regime, is a viable western facing and democratic Ukraine. For Putins biggest fear is not NATO or the West, its being strung up by his own people like Nicolae Ceausescu. NATO doesnt keep him awake at night, being over thrown by his own does. And a free, prosperous Ukraine terrifies him, thats why hes doing everything to destabilise the country and make even invade, killing many more 1000's. He's terrified of Slav's tasting western democracy or the rule of law.

Putin wants corrupt dictatorships on his doorstep, with strong men who rely on him to be in power, and for the Slavic peoples to all be enslaved in this reality, with brutal repressions for anyone who doesnt.

When Poroshenko lost to Zelenskiy not a shot was fired, when the the pople protested against the corrupt Yanukovich, many civilians on Maidan were killed by the authorities. Maybe one day when youre in Ukraine you can visit Mezhyhirya, and see the crazy opulence of his Palace (stolen from the state)

I can tell you this with 100% surity, that even in Mariupol, one of the most formerly pro Russian cities in Ukraine, where everyone speaks Russian as their first langauge, that the majority in 2014, would almost certainly have looked towards Moscow first, now they see first hand the lawlessness and choas in their quasi republics, the theft and lack of services, they realise the truth of what Putin has done to their nation and they dont want Putin, they reject him entirely, and know who he is and what he's done.

I know 4 men from 26-68 in Mariupol that are preparing to fight if he invades. You think they give a flying f*** about the US, or EU?

Incredibly enlightening, thanks for posting. Hope your family and friends stay safe.

 

[Bry Nylon]

One of the most pressing issues facing the world right now and the usual suspects squabbling amongst themselves and de-railing another thread for those that wish to read, learn and debate. FFS just bicker in the pit if you have to.

If this carries on I will thread ban the usual suspects from every single BB thread so the only place you will be able to **** up threads is in the pit.

Thanks

 

[Swansman]

I await an explanation with interest, although, not with expectation.

As for false flags, we've done that for a very long time. Black propaganda during WWII. The Gulf of Tonkin incident. Asymmetric warfare, everyone does it. The West has a well documented history of funding rebels and parties in various countries. Cyber attacks, every big country has a army of trolls to spread the propaganda they like to get out there. State-sponsored propaganda exists in every big or important country. Many in the West buy Western propaganda, believing we're the Jedis of the world fighting for what is good and right, many in Russia or various other "evil" states believe in their respective propaganda machines. We're all the same.

That's certainly the line being peddled from Moscow but how exactly is 'the West' threatening Russia compared to all their belligerent actions eg interfering in democratic elections, murdering citizens with radioactive poisons etc?

Well, to take one example: how about Western media promoting the extreme-right Alexei Navalny as the intellectual voice of freedom from Russia? Or loudly applauding and interfering in the protests against the democratically elected leader of Ukraine back in 2014? As for murdering or "suiciding" critical voices, we have that as well. Only that, similarly to what RT might say about someone poisoned by the Russian state, our media will be saying "ludicrous... nothing to see here".

Its two empires fending off. There's no good or evil side. It's not Star Wars, though Hollywood may have shaped us to believe so.

 

[Baldseagull]

In a sliding doors moment, a potential PM and Home Secretary have already nailed their 'who's to blame' colours firmly to the mast ..

In a groundhog day moment JCFG makes a dig at Corbyn, nailing his whataboutism colours firmly to the mast.

 

[amexer]

One of the most pressing issues facing the world right now and the usual suspects squabbling amongst themselves and de-railing another thread for those that wish to read, learn and debate. FFS just bicker in the pit if you have to.

If this carries on I will thread ban the usual suspects from every single BB thread so the only place you will be able to **** up threads is in the pit.

Thanks

Agree. Appreciated reading opinions from people who know a lot more than I do. Now like so many threads the informative posts becoming harder to find.

 

[peterward]

China does not want the " Sheen " knocked off their Winter Olympics..give it another 10 days before Russia is " Forced" in to invading Ukraine because of NATO reaffirming their commitment to stand together against an invading force...ie, Russia!

Winter Olympics finishes on Saturday 19th. Surprise surprise but Putin started 10 days of exercises with Belarus on Thursday for 10 days that finish on Saturday 19th and more and more troops arriving..... And just in case that could be called a coincidence. Tomorrow he starts 1 week of naval exercises across the entire length of the black sea coast with amphibious landing vehicles that also finish on Saturday the 19th.

Yesterday the extremely unusual decision he made to quickly get his 80 million luxury yacht out of Germany and sail it to russian territory in Kalingrad. His ship was meant to be there 14 weeks for serving, maintenance and upgrades. It's been there a few weeks, and the first part was sea worthiness maintenance stuff, during which time the west has said he will be sanctioned personally if he invades..... As soon as his ship was again fully sea worthy and without a lot of the planned work and upgrades done, he's immediately bailed and had it driven away..... Not the actions of a man "with no intention to invade"

Been scrambling all week to get a fast track visa for my mother in law, paid £300 extra for fast track, 5 business days and was lodged Thursday. Desperate to get her out of there for a few weeks just in case. Wife is beside herself with worry.

Expecting some form of false flag attack imminently that the Russians will blame Ukraine for and try to use as a bullshit pretext to invade.

99% sure they'll push North out of occupied Crimea, as a lot of troops, equipment and field hospitals been arriving there and for last 7 years they've had a huge problem with water supply to stolen Crimean peninsula, which has hugely affected agriculture and business in Crimea. The only supply came from the Dnipro river that runs through Ukraine and Kyiv, and the Ukrainians dammed it and cut off their water supply. It's been a big problem to import water across the Kerch strait from Russia, so Russia invading to get control of the water supply that feeds Crimea is almost certain imho if invasion happens.

Putin by dictionary definition is a fascist dictator and the sooner the world treats him like the pariah he is and makes him an outcast the better.

 

[Da Man Clay]

One of the most pressing issues facing the world right now and the usual suspects squabbling amongst themselves and de-railing another thread for those that wish to read, learn and debate. FFS just bicker in the pit if you have to.

If this carries on I will thread ban the usual suspects from every single BB thread so the only place you will be able to **** up threads is in the pit.

Thanks

That would be ideal. Place has gone downhill again since the return of the usual suspects.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

As for false flags, we've done that for a very long time. Black propaganda during WWII. The Gulf of Tonkin incident. Asymmetric warfare, everyone does it. The West has a well documented history of funding rebels and parties in various countries. Cyber attacks, every big country has a army of trolls to spread the propaganda they like to get out there. State-sponsored propaganda exists in every big or important country. Many in the West buy Western propaganda, believing we're the Jedis of the world fighting for what is good and right, many in Russia or various other "evil" states believe in their respective propaganda machines. We're all the same.



Well, to take one example: how about Western media promoting the extreme-right Alexei Navalny as the intellectual voice of freedom from Russia? Or loudly applauding and interfering in the protests against the democratically elected leader of Ukraine back in 2014? As for murdering or "suiciding" critical voices, we have that as well. Only that, similarly to what RT might say about someone poisoned by the Russian state, our media will be saying "ludicrous... nothing to see here".

Its two empires fending off. There's no good or evil side. It's not Star Wars, though Hollywood may have shaped us to believe so.

Do you mean the opposition leader who was described as a prisoner of conscience by Amnesty International and poisoned by a Novichok nerve agent similar to the type used in Salisbury? How many people that our governments don't like have we murdered on Russian soil? Examples, please. Comparing our diverse media with RT is also a bit ludicrous. It's definitely two sides fending off but pretending we are just the same is absurd.

 

[vegster]

Winter Olympics finishes on Saturday 19th. Surprise surprise but Putin started 10 days of excercises with Belarus on Thursday for 10 days that finish on Saturday 19th..... And just in case that could be called a coincidence. Tomorrow he starts 1 week of naval exercises across the entire length of the black sea coast with amphibious landing vehicles that also finish on Saturday the 19th.

Been scrambling all week to get a fast track visa for my mother in law, paid £300 extra for fast track, 5 business days and was lodged Thursday. Desperate to get her out of there for a few weeks just in case. Wife is beside herself with worry.

Expecting some form of false flag attack imminently that the Russians will blame Ukraine fir and use a bullshit pretext to invade

Putin by dictionary definition is a fascist dictator and the sooner the world treats him like the pariah he is and makes him an outcast the better.[/QUOTE

I share your anxiety, genuinely worrying times ahead in the near future. Fortunately, Swansman thinks this is just a 50/50 thing of East v West and we are to to blame for Russia putting 100.000 troops on the Ukrainian border. Might be better if Swansman relocates to Ukraine for his overseas course rather than Portslade ? That might make for a better education ?

 

[portslade seagull]

Clueless muppet, parroting the bollox you watch on RT as you smoke the funny stuff.

Ive a ukrainian wife, my mother in law lives 10km from the front line in the most eastern suburb of Mariupol. She is a friend (having taught her English) to the wife of the deputy head of the SBU, and also friends with a former deputy (MP) previously in the Verkhvona Rada.
I know the country and its politics inside and out. Ive seen the devastation first hand of the Russian invasion of Donbass where over 15000 have been killed. Ive been many times through the once beautiful airport in Donetsk, now a ruin because of one man.

It was 100% a natural and organic revolution against a devastatingly corrupt Russian puppet Yanukovych, he agreed to move towards the EU which was still the majority opinion in the divided country, then reneged under pressure from Moscow to dump that aspiration, which caused the backlash.

Would the west prefer a western leaning government to a Moscow leaning one, thats obvious, but any talk of it being a western Coup is utter bollox. It was a civilian uprising.

During the totally corrupt tenure of Yanukovich his totally corrupt government expropriated countless businesses, he was called "the sultan", and was following the Putin playbook of killing or locking up opposition figures or outspoken journalists, the corrupt courts handing out kangaroo sentences and massive schemes of theft from state ministries. It was the most corrupt of any Ukrainian Presidency to date and the people knew it and experienced it. I was in Kyiv in 2014 just as Maidan started, I know people who were on Maidan and they are well informed and are sick of the endemic corruption. They reject Putins view of a corrupt subserviant Ukraine under Russias heel.

And this in essense is the real issue. It has nothing to do with any threat whatsoever of Ukraine towards Russia, there is none. Putin harks on about Ukraine and Russia being one people and brother nations, but it was Russia that banned the use of the Ukrainian langauge, It was Mosocw that caused the Holodomor of the 1930's, where over 3 million Ukrainians starved to death. It was the soviets who executed Ukrainians, whilst they had a cosy deal with Hitler to carve up territory, before he turned on Russia.

Roll forward to the modern day and its Russia that has forcibly removed the ethnic turkic people in Crimea, that has stolen Crimea and locks up Ukrainians. It is Russia that has armed and devastated the now lawless puppet states the DNR/LNR and yet they complain of their security concerns?.

Lest anyone forget that after the collapse of the Soviet Union, Ukraine was the 3rd largest nuclear power and under international pressure it [stupidly] agreed to give up all of its nuclear weapons to be decommissioned for an iron clad security protection agreement, that its territorial integrity would be respected and preserved in exchange for laying down its nuclear arsenal. That agreement the Budapest memorandum of 1994 was agreed and signed by Russia, The US, the UK. It is Russia that has violated the security of Ukraine not the other way around, It is Russia that has stolen territory and killed 1000's of Ukrainian civilians, not Ukraine, not the US, UK or NATO

And why? its has nothing to do with any risk or threats that Ukraine or NATO may pose to the Russian Federation, that is horse shit, a red herring. Russia could join NATO (a mainly defensive grouping) if it wanted, nor do the ridiculous requests to roll back eastern european soveriegn countries choice to join NATO (with possibly the biggest reason being to escape Russia neo colonialism and agression).

It has everything to do with Putins own personal preservation, one the biggest threats to his corrupt, murderous regime, is a viable western facing and democratic Ukraine. For Putins biggest fear is not NATO or the West, its being strung up by his own people like Nicolae Ceausescu. NATO doesnt keep him awake at night, being over thrown by his own does. And a free, prosperous Ukraine terrifies him, thats why hes doing everything to destabilise the country and make even invade, killing many more 1000's. He's terrified of Slav's tasting western democracy or the rule of law.

Putin wants corrupt dictatorships on his doorstep, with strong men who rely on him to be in power, and for the Slavic peoples to all be enslaved in this reality, with brutal repressions for anyone who doesnt.

When Poroshenko lost to Zelenskiy not a shot was fired, when the the pople protested against the corrupt Yanukovich, many civilians on Maidan were killed by the authorities. Maybe one day when youre in Ukraine you can visit Mezhyhirya, and see the crazy opulence of his Palace (stolen from the state)

I can tell you this with 100% surity, that even in Mariupol, one of the most formerly pro Russian cities in Ukraine, where everyone speaks Russian as their first langauge, that the majority in 2014, would almost certainly have looked towards Moscow first, now they see first hand the lawlessness and choas in their quasi republics, the theft and lack of services, they realise the truth of what Putin has done to their nation and they dont want Putin, they reject him entirely, and know who he is and what he's done.

I know 4 men from 26-68 in Mariupol that are preparing to fight if he invades. You think they give a flying f*** about the US, or EU?

Hopefully things work out ok PW and you succeed with your plans for the mother in law

 

[jakarta]

Call the ******* and paste them from the air as soon they go over the border?

No doubt the USA have Stealth Bombers over there 24 hours a day. I'm sure the RAF would be happy to help out as well.

See how clever he is then...

 

[beorhthelm]

not sure there is a conceivable pretext that would make the West say that's ok and take no action. invasion is a strategic loss for Russia: they have failed to negotiate anything, unite the West and NATO members against them, with hard economic consequences. not clear they could quickly take Ukraine or trigger a uprising, more likely a heavy drawn out war or insurgency if they did overthrow the government. dont see the upside for them to an invasion.

at a 4D chess level, wonder if warnings of imminent invasion are to call his bluff and encourage a gracefull stand down, some "agreement" made over the weekend.

 

[Swansman]

Do you mean the opposition leader who was described as a prisoner of conscience by Amnesty International and poisoned by a Novichok nerve agent similar to the type used in Salisbury? How many people that our governments don't like have we murdered on Russian soil? Examples, please. Comparing our diverse media with RT is also a bit ludicrous. It's definitely two sides fending off but pretending we are just the same is absurd.

On Russian soil? No idea, ask the intelligence services. Elsewhere, thousands and thousands.

Anyway, it works every time. There is a war somewhere, we pretend to be the saviours of the world and send 18-19-20 year olds to die in some romanticised that in the end turns out to be about oil, natural gas or similar.

 

[Machiavelli]

If it happens, it's coming in the next week or so.

 

[peterward]

Would it stop Putin if NATO withdraws all troops on Russian border

There's only 3 countries in Nato that border mainland Russia, the 3 baltic nations of Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia (if you dont include Kaliningrad which is effectively in western europe). All 3 of the baltic nations made an independent and soverign choice to join NATO, almost certainly to protect themselves against Russian aggression and cohersion.

The one person that really pisses me off is certainly not Swansman, its Simon Jenkins writing in the Guardian, he literally parrots the Kremlin narrative, which is entirely false.

NATO is not advancing east it is not a country. It is the nations of the East who are choosing to move westwards away from Russias toxic influence. The former eastern european warsaw pact countries did not join a Moscow/Soviet dominated bloc out of choice, they were forced and subjugated into it. Numerous uprisings occured in Czeckoslovakia, Hunagary and Romania and all were brutally put down. They were enslaved by Moscow who installed moscow friendly puppet governments. When the Soviet Union collapsed they were desperate to protect themselves and their freedom from Russian hegemony and imperialism. Being too small to stand up to a much more powerful bully, they moved west to join the only alliance that could protect them from Moscow. To suggest its NATO marching east to contain Moscow is horse shit. It peoples and nations desperate to escape the repression of Moscow and who cant defend themselves alone that have chosen to join.

I'm not surprised that one of Putins ridiculous demands is that NATO pulls back to where it was in 1994, which would leave the 3 Baltic states as sitting ducks again against the insatiable imperial hunger of Tzar Putin.

You simply will not get "peace in our time" by appeasing Putin.

And for those of us who love to debate the Tories/Labour, Republicans and Dems, leave or remain, the common thing in all such political discourse is you are dealing with mainly rational people, often with some types of moral convictions, but simply wildly different worldviews. Putin is not a statesman, there is no right or wrong, everything is about opportunity and risk and what can I get away with... How many murdered, how many killed, how much devastation is not a problem, what is the risk to me and how can I mitigate it, is the only calculus.

You may hear a lot about the only way out of this is by implementing "the Minsk" agreements of 2015, Macron has this week tried to offer this as the way, the UK and other also suggested it as the best soluton, but its misguided in the extreme to think it could, it simply will not ever happen.

And the reason why, is that what Russia demands can never be agreed by Ukraine, and what Ukraine has reasonably offered will never be accepted by Putin.

Russia acts like its one of the peacemakers, but is both the fire hydrant and the arsonist. There militatry invaded and broke off donabas creating the puppet DNR/LNR statelets, they are still there today and what Moscow insists upon is that Kyiv gives full autonomy to that Region, that Kyiv has no right to disolve its autonomous goverment, no say in anything it does. That the DNR/LNR will be free to join any alliance or have trade aggreements with who it chooses (obviously with Russia) and can for instance allow Russian bases on its soil, and....... that this fully Russian controlled puppet state can have veto power against any Kyiv government decision like joining NATO or the EU. Russian demands that Ukraine Federalize and that its puppet state has veto power over all Kyiv central government decisons, which would of course instantly erode national sovereignty, it is a trojan horse that would be political suicide for any Ukrainian president to agree too. Putin will not stop until he has effective control of Ukrainan foreign policy.

Kyiv has agreed to allow a "degree of autonomy" to the region, but insists, that Ukraine must remain one whole and while the puppet states will be able to set and make laws locally, they cant over rule or over ride central goverment or the democratic will of the whole nation if they vote to move towards EU etc.

Kyiv is offering devolution much like we have here in the UK, Moscow having moved in its armed forces into Donbass is acting the equivalent of Nicola Sturgeon demanding full indepedence, the freedom to have foreign bases on Scottish soil to join the EU, but also to stay a part of the UK, funded by London with full veto power to over rule anything in westminster including UK trade deals or military allliances.

If you want to read about the Minsk accords you may hear a lot about and Moscows ridiculous demands, chatham house link is excellent as an over view https://www.chathamhouse.org/2020/05/minsk-conundrum-western-policy-and-russias-war-eastern-ukraine-0/minsk-2-agreement