[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[peterward]

Truly staggering expose of the deception and disinformation ops of this evil regime.

Washington Post behind paywall. Alternative link below

https://www.reddit.com/comments/1as9uc1

out.reddit.com

 

[Eric the meek]

Is the murder of Navalny a strategic level own goal?
Is Navalny stronger in death than alive in a Siberian penal colony?

The scale of the worldwide response continues to surprise me.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-68316979

But it is the response within Russia that is interesting, and may be the one that matters.

The response of the people? Online calls for mass rallies, some getting a million views. Small low-key public protests.
The state response? People are being arrested for putting flowers down.

Interesting times.

 

[Diablo]

Some might say he was foolish ! I say a brave brave man. At peace now !!

 

[A1X]

Is the murder of Navalny a strategic level own goal?
Is Navalny stronger in death than alive in a Siberian penal colony?

The scale of the worldwide response continues to surprise me.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-68316979

But it is the response within Russia that is interesting, and may be the one that matters.

The response of the people? Online calls for mass rallies, some getting a million views. Small low-key public protests.
The state response? People are being arrested for putting flowers down.

Interesting times.

It’s certainly an interesting point, and I believe you’re right. Putin has made a misstep here, Navalny may have been a thorn in his side but he wasn’t actually a credible threat at the moment to Putin’s regime. But taking him out turns him into a martyr, and there’s little more dangerous than a martyr to a cause for those who oppose it.

 

[Eric the meek]

Keep an eye out for a tsunami on social media aimed at discrediting Navalny. The replies to that tweet above contain a few hot off the press.

 

[Baldseagull]

You disagree to your hearts content, but these people aren’t taking any personal risks, they’re hiding behind the state. Poisoning (for example) is not the act of a brave individual. People who work in intelligence know how to disappear. They have options.

Those responsible for Navalny’s death appear at present to be a quietly neglectful prison service, that allowed conditions to fester in which a person could die with impunity.

If I’m being asked to poison a politician, I might say yes, but what I’m actually doing is picking up my kids and heading out the country, and I’m not stopping to pack.

You’re painting these scumbags as victims of circumstance, held against their will. I hate to shake your worldview, but i suspect the guys they have doing this stuff do it knowingly and willingly, and consider themselves patriots as they do it.

Yeah, they should run away to Britain away and live in Salisbury, Putin cant touch them there.

 

[Eric the meek]

Truly staggering expose of the deception and disinformation ops of this evil regime.

Washington Post behind paywall. Alternative link below

https://www.reddit.com/comments/1as9uc1

out.reddit.com

I've just read this link. It is quite, quite extraordinary. It must cost Russia a fortune to run those campaigns, and they're all based on nonsense conclusions about Ukraine, and designed to spread even more nonsense. All, all of it, fabricated lies.

If only they spent all that public, taxpayers' money on something useful, like schools, hospitals and robust heating systems.

 

[US Seagull]

Is the murder of Navalny a strategic level own goal?
Is Navalny stronger in death than alive in a Siberian penal colony?

The scale of the worldwide response continues to surprise me.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-68316979

But it is the response within Russia that is interesting, and may be the one that matters.

The response of the people? Online calls for mass rallies, some getting a million views. Small low-key public protests.
The state response? People are being arrested for putting flowers down.

Interesting times.

I've read some speculation that Putin might not have ordered it and that somebody further down the line of command might have done it on their own initiative.

The idea being that Putin was working on his "not such a bad guy" PR campaign with that Tucker Carlson interview and this would seem to very much undermine that.

As you say, an "own goal"

 

[Triggaaar]

I've read some speculation that Putin might not have ordered it and that somebody further down the line of command might have done it on their own initiative.

I don't imagine anyone below Putin would have the authority to make a decision like that which would be so public.

 

[US Seagull]

I don't imagine anyone below Putin would have the authority to make a decision like that which would be so public.

I would suspect that too. But you never know when some ambitious dipshit might think that they could move up quickly if they show some "initiative" and do what they think the boss wants, but can't say.

 

[Easy 10]

I've read some speculation that Putin might not have ordered it and that somebody further down the line of command might have done it on their own initiative.

The idea being that Putin was working on his "not such a bad guy" PR campaign with that Tucker Carlson interview and this would seem to very much undermine that.

As you say, an "own goal"

I find it impossible to believe that anything as big as this goes ahead WITHOUT the autocratic control freak instigating it and signing it off.

 

[Easy 10]

I would suspect that too. But you never know when some ambitious dipshit might think that they could move up quickly if they show some "initiative" and do what they think the boss wants, but can't say.

By going rogue he'd end up in a Siberian gulag quicker than you can say "Nikita".

 

[phoenix]

You disagree to your hearts content, but these people aren’t taking any personal risks, they’re hiding behind the state. Poisoning (for example) is not the act of a brave individual. People who work in intelligence know how to disappear. They have options.

Those responsible for Navalny’s death appear at present to be a quietly neglectful prison service, that allowed conditions to fester in which a person could die with impunity.

If I’m being asked to poison a politician, I might say yes, but what I’m actually doing is picking up my kids and heading out the country, and I’m not stopping to pack.

You’re painting these scumbags as victims of circumstance, held against their will. I hate to shake your worldview, but i suspect the guys they have doing this stuff do it knowingly and willingly, and consider themselves patriots as they do it.

You’re painting these scumbags as victims of circumstance, held against their will. I hate to shake your worldview, but i suspect the guys they have doing this stuff do it knowingly and willingly, and consider themselves patriots as they do it

you said " I might say yes, " so you agree.

Don't be silly you said the same as me give it a rest mate. Seriously i just gave a opinion from a humane point of you and i see good in everyone wherever possible.
Why on earth would want to be so nasty with your reply I don't understand your last paragraph. I gave a humane opinion just merely saying that those involved may not be able to just refuse.;
Now get your reasonable head on and ask yourself am i really painting these people how you are saying

"You’re painting these scumbags as victims of circumstance, held against their will. I hate to shake your worldview, but i suspect the guys they have doing this stuff do it knowingly and willingly, and consider themselves patriots as they do it"

I'm just not like that Can't others have a opinion without being abused.
Anyway it worked you've Upset me with your accusations well done.

 

[Triggaaar]

I would suspect that too. But you never know when some ambitious dipshit might think that they could move up quickly if they show some "initiative" and do what they think the boss wants, but can't say.

Nah, the boss we're talking about can say anything, it's not like in a democracy. I don't believe anyone would think otherwise.

 

[Triggaaar]

you said " I might say yes, " so you agree.

Eh? He's saying that he might pay lip-service to an order (for personal safety reasons), but he wouldn't carry it out, he'd do a runner.

Why on earth would want to be so nasty with your reply I don't understand your last paragraph.

I get the feeling that you've misinterpreted something here, I don't think he was trying to be nasty to you.

The Russian soldiers committing war crimes in Ukraine are not just good people following orders. Some of the soldiers are of course just normal people, but there are a lot of bad people there too.

 

[chickens]

You’re painting these scumbags as victims of circumstance, held against their will. I hate to shake your worldview, but i suspect the guys they have doing this stuff do it knowingly and willingly, and consider themselves patriots as they do it

you said " I might say yes, " so you agree.

Don't be silly you said the same as me give it a rest mate. Seriously i just gave a opinion from a humane point of you and i see good in everyone wherever possible.

I CAN HONESTLY SAY YOU HAVE REALLY UPSET ME WITH THIS REPLY SO GOOD FOR YOU I'M NOT THE ENEMY.

Firstly, no intention to upset you, so I apologise if I have. I accept I may have answered quickly without taking time to be careful in the language I used.

Nonetheless, I retain my position. I disagree with your point on whether or not those carrying out such acts as poisoning, or the wilful neglect of prisoners are brave.

I believe they know full well they are carrying out their instructions with the impunity that operating on behalf of the state gives them, and that if they did not have that protection, they would not act in the manner that they do. I retain my conviction that they are cowards empowered by their state.

 

[Eric the meek]

I've read some speculation that Putin might not have ordered it and that somebody further down the line of command might have done it on their own initiative.

The idea being that Putin was working on his "not such a bad guy" PR campaign with that Tucker Carlson interview and this would seem to very much undermine that.

As you say, an "own goal"

There's nothing wrong with a good bit of speculation.

There are a few possible scenarios - I'll try to cover them all, but feel free to pile in if you can think of any more.

1) The speculation is correct. Someone below Putin issued the command to kill Navalny. This raises the possibility of a power struggle. Previously, going over Putin's head would have meant a bullet in an FSB basement.
2) The speculation is wrong. Putin gave the order and nobody else. For me, this is more likely.
3) The speculation is wrong, but was initiated by the Kremlin, as deliberate disinformation. This would be Putin realising he has made a mistake, and trying to limit the damage, by scapegoating somebody else. Standard Russian behaviour.

 

[phoenix]

Eh? He's saying that he might pay lip-service to an order (for personal safety reasons), but he wouldn't carry it out, he'd do a runner.



I get the feeling that you've misinterpreted something here, I don't think he was trying to be nasty to you.

The Russian soldiers committing war crimes in Ukraine are not just good people following orders. Some of the soldiers are of course just normal people, but there are a lot of bad people there too.

I'm ok with Chicken now so leave it there. I'm not even going to attempt a explanation.
Sometimes it's best to say nothing

 

[phoenix]

Firstly, no intention to upset you, so I apologise if I have. I accept I may have answered quickly without taking time to be careful in the language I used.

Nonetheless, I retain my position. I disagree with your point on whether or not those carrying out such acts as poisoning, or the wilful neglect of prisoners are brave.

I believe they know full well they are carrying out their instructions with the impunity that operating on behalf of the state gives them, and that if they did not have that protection, they would not act in the manner that they do. I retain my conviction that they are cowards empowered by their state.

Apologies accepted i hate Putin and his army with a passion that's all you need to know. I'm leaving it at that i don't need to say anymore.

 

[Zeberdi]

Meanwhile, after Muscovites left flowers at a Moscow monument (dedicated to victims of political repression ) for Alexi Navalny on Friday, the monument was then destroyed overnight by masked individuals:



And if any powers that be in the West are weakening in their resolve to help arm Ukraine‘s fight to retain it’s independence from Russia - surely the historical poisoning of one of Russia’s most influential opposition politicians and his subsequent death as a political prisoner, should give heads a wobble. As should the arrest of hundreds of human rights activists laying flowers in his memory.

I’m hoping that Putin’s henchmen if they were indeed responsible, have scored an own goal and instead of quelling opposition to Putin, Nevalny’s death might galvanise it. He might seen I think as a martyr to the cause. Unfortunately though, I can see another Tiananmen Square in the making if protests become too ’uncomfortable’ for Putin.