[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[Here'sWally]

Yeah, bang on with that. I watched a report last night about a family of four, mum, dad, brother and sister both not yet ten years old, gunned down in the street as they fled their home town.

It was hard to tell for sure, as they were dead by this point, but those kids (teddy bears in hand no less), both looked looked like typical fascists to me.

Go and have a word with yourself, mate. Ffs.

Obviously it's awful, truely heartbreaking, and nothing I said was supportive of this war. I hate war, all war.

 

[Poojah]

Obviously it's awful, truely heartbreaking, and nothing I said was supportive of this war. I hate war, all war.

What you said was, kind of, supportive of this war. You said this:

The BBC clearly knew of the problems in Ukraine in 2017, so it's hard to understand why the reporting is such a whitewash today. Ukraine is hardly a healthy democracy and bastion of freedom. I've heard people say we should be worried about Russia moving into western Europe, but I'd be more worried about some of the nationalist ultra right wing ideology in Ukraine spreading, I think that's more likely. I'm no fan of Russia, but painting this as a fight between good and evil is starting to look a little off to me.

To me, that reads as quasi-justification of Russia’s ‘special operation’ in Ukraine, and suggests that right wing ideology is a greater threat than Moscow. I don’t know the situation well enough, but what I see is civilians being killed, homes being shelled and lives being destroyed. No matter the justification (which is complete bollocks, obviously), war crimes are war crimes. And these are ware crimes. This is the story I was referring to, for reference…

WARNING; NOT NICE VIEWING

https://www.reddit.com/r/interestin...urce=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/06/world/europe/ukraine-irpin-civilian-death.html

 

[Here'sWally]

Dont buy into the Kremlin BS. This programme is older than 2017, even if it was aired then. The Azov battalion is one Battalion, that does contain ultra right wing, neo nazi types. They were the only group ready and willing to supplement the pathetic 5000 strong Ukrainian army in 2014 when Russia invaded Ukraine. The have since become a reserve group. There is not a single member of any nationlist or far right group in any level of national or regional government. "Nationialists" account for a lot less than 2% of the electorate and theyre just the hardcore pro ukrainians not the neo nazis. Its a red herring, the neo nazi elements are not bigger than the BNP, or Britian first.

Ukraine has one of the toughest and much tougher than Russia anti extremeist laws, these people have no place in public discourse, but they were willing to fight for the borders when no other options exsisted and they are now battle hardened veterans. When they are fighting, theyre not promoting Hitler, theyre just fighting like any other soldierr, theyre also kept as one battalion away from the mainstream regulars.

Converse this with Russia, using Islamic extremist Chechens, killng men, women and chidren Orthodox Christians as infidels, looking to recruit Syrians to fight "brothers" and they (Russia) has a much higher societal level of Neo Nazi facist groups, they have plenty fighting for Russia, the mercenary Wagner Group is full of swastica tattooed troops, yesterday one of the leaders of the "Sparta" Battlalion, a neo nazi was killed in action.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/russian-warlord-who-led-neo-26402909

Of course their political view are abhorrent, but theres no bigger neo nazi problem prortionally, than there is in the UK, and it hides the fact Russia has abigger one and uses Neo Nazi battalions too.

Its purely framing a narrative

Look, I would be the first to admit, I knew very little about Ukraine beyond the somewhat sketchy coup in 2014. I've only just started trying to understand what is going on in the last week or so, and it just seems to me that there are two narratives. The one before this war started, and the one since.

I can only preface everything with "from what I've read". But, from what I have read, what you are saying is seriously downplaying the situation.

I read this article today from TheNation (written in 2019), and I even did a "media bias" check to make sure I'm not reading something from a skewed perspective, it's tough figuring out what should and shouldn't be believed right now.

It's extremely detailed and well sourced, and it's really quite a worrying read. It also addresses your point about "seats in the parliament" etc.

"The DC establishment’s standard defense of Kiev is to point out that Ukraine’s far right has a smaller percentage of seats in the parliament than their counterparts in places like France. That’s a spurious argument: What Ukraine’s far right lacks in polls numbers, it makes up for with things Marine Le Pen could only dream of—paramilitary units and free rein on the streets.

Post-Maidan Ukraine is the world’s only nation to have a neo-Nazi formation in its armed forces. The Azov Battalion was initially formed out of the neo-Nazi gang Patriot of Ukraine. Andriy Biletsky, the gang’s leader who became Azov’s commander, once wrote that Ukraine’s mission is to “lead the White Races of the world in a final crusade…against the Semite-led Untermenschen.” Biletsky is now a deputy in Ukraine’s parliament."

It doesn't change the fact that this war is truely awful, and should not be happening. But if what I am reading is true, I am shocked that I would never have known it or believed it if I stuck to watching the TV news over the past few weeks. I'm not saying that anyone should be any less against what is going on. Everyone should be against war, all war. But something about there being such a blind spot when it comes to this stuff, which I think we should never have a blind spot to, does make me quite uncomfortable.

Especially when you consider the enormous amount of military hardware, funding and even people joining the fight, all heading to Ukraine right now.

https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/neo-nazis-far-right-ukraine/

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-nation/

 

[Baldseagull]

Look, I would be the first to admit, I knew very little about Ukraine beyond the somewhat sketchy coup in 2014. I've only just started trying to understand what is going on in the last week or so, and it just seems to me that there are two narratives. The one before this war started, and the one since.

I can only preface everything with "from what I've read". But, from what I have read, what you are saying is seriously downplaying the situation.

I read this article today from TheNation (written in 2019), and I even did a "media bias" check to make sure I'm not reading something from a skewed perspective, it's tough figuring out what should and shouldn't be believed right now.

It's extremely detailed and well sourced, and it's really quite a worrying read. It also addresses your point about "seats in the parliament" etc.



It doesn't change the fact that this war is truely awful, and should not be happening. But if what I am reading is true, I am shocked that I would never have known it or believed it if I stuck to watching the TV news over the past few weeks. I'm not saying that anyone should be any less against what is going on. Everyone should be against war, all war. But something about there being such a blind spot when it comes to this stuff, which I think we should never have a blind spot to, does make me quite uncomfortable.

Especially when you consider the enormous amount of military hardware, funding and even people joining the fight, all heading to Ukraine right now.

https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/neo-nazis-far-right-ukraine/

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-nation/

From what I have read, that Azov Battalion is formed of mixed groups, some of which had strong far right sensibilities, and they have been accused of torture and targetting civillian areas. They have been fighting in Donetsk against pro Russian far right militias. In recent years many of the leaders of these pro Russian groups have been assassinated, suspected to be by Russia, because of their war crimes and the far right nature of some of these groups being damaging to the claims Russia wants to make of freedom fighters persecuted by Nazi's.

I have no doubt that there are strong Nationalist sentiments among militias in Donetsk and Luhansk, on both sides.

 

[Baldseagull]

NATO is presented to you as being a solely defensive alliance. That's an absurd suggestion. It is a geopolitical force.

However, for an alternative view to mine- that correctly forecast the Ukraine invasion..

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/nats-influence-has-weakened-the-world-is-not-better-for-it/

With the aim of defence and security of it's members. It is a defensive alliance.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Edit : why bother. This one is too immensed in Putin's propaganda. I won't even quote to echo the disgusting talking points.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Lol.

Read the comments.

[Tweet]1500889880611770376[/Tweet]

 

[Rodney Thomas]

The BBC clearly knew of the problems in Ukraine in 2017, so it's hard to understand why the reporting is such a whitewash today. Ukraine is hardly a healthy democracy and bastion of freedom. I've heard people say we should be worried about Russia moving into western Europe, but I'd be more worried about some of the nationalist ultra right wing ideology in Ukraine spreading, I think that's more likely. I'm no fan of Russia, but painting this as a fight between good and evil is starting to look a little off to me.

[tweet]1500826230106562564[/tweet]

Classic victim blaming. Scumbag.

 

[Insel affe]

7am our time, the ceasefire starts and safe passage can be used to Russia or Belarus…..

Wonder how many take this up and how long the ceasefire lasts.

 

[Gabbafella]

7am our time, the ceasefire starts and safe passage can be used to Russia or Belarus…..

Wonder how many take this up and how long the ceasefire lasts.

Possibly a bit of a cry wolf situation. With two ceasefires being ignored already, I can see a lot of people staying put for fear of being callously shot in the back. Flip side to that is do they stay and potentially face worse?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

7am our time, the ceasefire starts and safe passage can be used to Russia or Belarus…..

Wonder how many take this up and how long the ceasefire lasts.

Who would want to travel in those directions?

 

[Klaas]

[tweet]1500806310538919938[/tweet]

We're all used to politicians dodging questions and indulging in whataboutism, but this scum bag trying to frame these questions as suiting Putin's agenda and invoking the bravery of the Ukranian people to avoid answering them is next level.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Lol.

Read the comments.

[Tweet]1500889880611770376[/Tweet]

There are a couple of people on this thread who will blame NATO, Boris Johnson and the Ukraine…

 

[dejavuatbtn]

Finland aren't demilitarised, so what's that got to do with it?

My point was that this may be Putin’s objective.

 

[atomised]

There are a couple of people on this thread who will blame NATO, Boris Johnson and the Ukraine…

"Senseless and barbaric action" interesting quote to finish on considering their countries actions

 

[Gabbafella]

Lol.

Read the comments.

[Tweet]1500889880611770376[/Tweet]

"The driver was simply performing a special parking operation"

 

[heathgate]

I am all for free speech, and this platform has been a good example of that freedom, right from its inception. However, it has always been a good example also, of a site that won't hesitate to ban or delete offensive and/or willfully false posts and posters should the occasion demand it.

Could I ask the admins to watch carefully on here as to those who are posting fake and obviously inappropriate virtually pro-Russian perspectives at this sensitive time. It is plainly obvious that, despite the unsavoury nature of a small section of society and politics in democratic eastern Europe, that there is nobody at fault in this scenario other than Russia, there is no wriggle room for those trying to mitigate the motives and effects of a full scale invasion of a democratic nation, the shelling and killing of civilians and civilian infrastructure.

Please consider a closer look.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

 

[Eric the meek]

I am all for free speech, and this platform has been a good example of that freedom, right from its inception. However, it has always been a good example also, of a site that won't hesitate to ban or delete offensive and/or willfully false posts and posters should the occasion demand it.

Could I ask the admins to watch carefully on here as to those who are posting fake and obviously inappropriate virtually pro-Russian perspectives at this sensitive time. It is plainly obvious that, despite the unsavoury nature of a small section of society and politics in democratic eastern Europe, that there is nobody at fault in this scenario other than Russia, there is no wriggle room for those trying to mitigate the motives and effects of a full scale invasion of a democratic nation, the shelling and killing of civilians and civilian infrastructure.

Please consider a closer look.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

Seconded.

 

[Hugo Rune]

[tweet]1500806310538919938[/tweet]

We're all used to politicians dodging questions and indulging in whataboutism, but this scum bag trying to frame these questions as suiting Putin's agenda and invoking the bravery of the Ukranian people to avoid answering them is next level.

Par for the course.

This sort of thing is going down very well with his voters along with severely restricting the amount of refugees that can enter the country.

 

[vegster]

It's starting to look very much like Russia has started a war they can neither win or, extricate themselves from without huge loss of face and equipment and world condemnation. Oopsie !