[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[Triggaaar]

Zelenskyy went to the White House to sign a framework for the mineral deal- the stumbling block is currently the Military/Security issue - not the financial side.

You didn't ask what the stumbling block was, you said you didn't understand the talk of America robbing Ukraine. We're talking about Trump trying to get get hundreds of billions from Ukraine, in payment for a lot less.

Zelenskyy has said since the White House meeting he is still prepared to sign the deal.


He is clearly not in agreement with you and many others on this forum

No, you are mistaken. Firstly, what Trump initially asked for is a lot more than the most recent deal currently agrees. Now while tough negotiations are all well and good in business, it's not at all cool when the party you're trying to extort is a democratic country fighting for freedom in Europe, and while you try to take advantage of an unbalanced position, thousand of innocent civilians are dying. That's not the 'Art of the deal', that's callous. And secondly, behind closed doors I'm sure Zelenskyy is saying far worse about Trump's behaviour than we are on here, and while he's publicly saying that he's prepared to sign the deal, that is a sign of him working diplomatically, rather than any suggestion that he doesn't think Trump is trying to rob Ukraine.

 

[portlock seagull]

I was taught negotiations are two sided affairs, and a good negotiation is when both sides win/benefit/happy/sustainable etc.

I think some people get this confused with an ultimatum. That requires next to no skill, and is often simply the hallmark of a bully.

 

[Triggaaar]

I understand your anger, but my president has never sided with a genocidal fascist.

Yes he has. He has claimed that Zelenskyy is a dictator, but won't say the same about Putin, who is an actual dictator, and he's claimed that Zelenskyy was responsible for the war, and refuses to blame Putin for starting it.

So yes, he has clearly sided with the genocidal fascist dictator Putin.

He wants to end the killing. Don't you? Do you have a solution?

I see no evidence that he wants the killing to stop, because his actions are preventing it from stopping.

Yes, I have a solution. Trump could do this:
State that Russia's invasion is illegal and that Trump is prepared to supply so many arms to Ukraine (payment backed by natural resources), that Russia's army in Ukraine will be completely wiped out, but offer Putin peace instead if Putin would prefer. The peace could be that (and as an example I'm giving a weak response here for an easy win) Russia doesn't have to immediately withdraw from Ukraine, but the fighting stops, and that Ukraine (using the area not occupied by Russia) joins Nato.

Putin wouldn't like it, but Russia are already struggling on the battlefield, and if Trump were to fully arm Ukraine, it would get messy for Russia, so it would be wise for Putin to accept.

Instead he's giving no reason at all for Putin to stop. Zelenskyy can say he's ready to stop as much as he likes, but while Trump stops military aid and supports Putin, Putin will keep fighting for more.

 

[Triggaaar]

Yes maybe best you do that.

I have family in Ukraine, my wife is permanently cut off from mother, her city destroyed, she cries almost daily that she can never return, with fellow citizens thrown in bin bags in mass graves, the city of Mariupol is in ruins.

Thats not your fault, its Putins, who is commiting genocide. Rape, murder, child abduction, erasing all forms of Ukrainian literature, history, language.

Its the nearest thing to what Hitler did 80 years ago.

and yet your President, has sided with the genocidal fascist, has broken this rightly indicted war criminal out of isolation, is normalising relations, is swallowinmg his disinformation and engaging in victim shaming, blaming the brave and courageous leader of the people being murdered in their homes, on their land.
And now he's cut off the means to defend themselves against the Russian genocidal fascists, that he so openly supports.

Many more will die because of the absolute f**king moron, criminal, vile piece of shit you call your president and his VP lapdog.

He is disgrace of a human being and Americans should hang their heads in shame at what your great nation has become and now embraces as new normal.

Its a long way from when you called "Article 5" and we and others ran to your side after the horrific attacks on the world trade centre.

Could you imagine if our deputy PM, had chimed in and accused George W Bush, showing foreign heads of state around the ruins & mass deaths at ground zero, as "engaging in propaganda tours"?

This.

It's sickening that we have to deal with Putin and Trump apologists while families like yours suffer so much.

f***ing ****s.

 

[portlock seagull]

@Triggaaar ….again, don’t feed the troll!

 

[Triggaaar]

@Triggaaar ….again, don’t feed the troll!

If the mods feel they're trolling, they should be banned from the thread. Personally I don't like to see such vile claptrap sit here unchallenged. I know others have challenged the false narrative too, but I don't like the idea that an innocent reader could stumble into the thread and read a bit of Russia Today and believe it's in any way real or fair. It's offensive Russian propaganda, and I will keep calling it out as long as it's posted (regardless whether or not the poster is a paid Russian shill or just a troll).

 

[portlock seagull]

If the mods feel they're trolling, they should be banned from the thread. Personally I don't like to see such vile claptrap sit here unchallenged. I know others have challenged the false narrative too, but I don't like the idea that an innocent reader could stumble into the thread and read a bit of Russia Today and believe it's in any way real or fair. It's offensive Russian propaganda, and I will keep calling it out as long as it's posted (regardless whether or not the poster is a paid Russian shill or just a troll).

It’s just he or she clearly is, and I can sense your blood pressure rising. Don’t do yourself an injury old boy that’s all. Your typeface is wasted on them, it’s not about challenging or debating them. Ardent is just ardent. 50 years after ww2 many Germans still believed in Hitler. Remember, the thick can’t be converted because they’re thick. Just file this troll under scum and put on ignore. You’ll learn nothing from, nor succeed in convincing them otherwise.

 

[raymondo]

He's endlessly patient.
I could quibble about the,",under President Trump's strong leadership" malarkey, and "being ready to sign the deal..."
At the moment I believe Trump and Vance will try to humiliate him again. The discussion should be behind closed doors and a couple of European reps MUST be with him. Not only for support and balance, but also because Europe is supposed to be providing security post ceasefire.

I think Trump just wants the minerals for free - I can't see any security being offered by the US.
I wonder what the timing of the alternative European peace proposal is

 

[Triggaaar]

How did we go from “Trump is going to start WWWIII”…

…to now being angry that Trump is trying to stop WWIII from happening?

And explain it to me like I’m a five year old.

Where is your evidence that Trump is stopping WW3?

Putin wants to take over Ukraine, and then move onto other European countries, and Trump is helping him. That puts us at more risk of WW3, not less.

 

[raymondo]

Includes shades of the French partial ceasefire idea. He’s changing his tone to include things that will pacify the narcissist - thanks for the javelins, Mr President. Make him feel like he’s back in control. Suggests Zelenskyy is getting some welcome help or advice.

I fear it won’t be enough.

It won't be enough because I fear Trump wants blood (Zelenskiy's) and basically a mineral deal that favours the US.
In which case I hope its not enough and await a European proposal.
But Ukraine does need effing Patriot missiles

 

[Triggaaar]

Those demands are a silly sick joke, and should be completely ignored. Instead, Europe should do everything needed to help Ukraine fight.

 

[Triggaaar]

I heard 6 months supply on radio this morning. But, if Russia attacks on all fronts then Ukraine's reserves will run out faster.

I was listening to the same thing. Russia is already giving it everything they have so I don't believe they have the capability to increase their attacks on all fronts.

 

[Brovion]

You’re better than that B, don’t feed the troll! Oldest rule on the net

Yeah, sorry. It's just that I have a horrible suspicion that he actually believes it ...

 

[Eric the meek]

This thread has suddenly become a magnet for trolls.

 

[raymondo]

Those demands are a silly sick joke, and should be completely ignored. Instead, Europe should do everything needed to help Ukraine fight.

Yes, that was Pekka's point, showing that Trump had sided with Putin.

 

[raymondo]

Stock market massively on the slide. Will be interesting to see what Trump pulls out of his arse in front of congress today

More shit probably

 

[raymondo]

"I just want to stop the killing."

Translation

I just want to stop Ukrainians from killing Russian invaders.

and I'd like some cheap minerals

 

[Triggaaar]

This chap is a former US Ambassador to Russia (2012-2014)

This

 

[SouthSaxon]

He's endlessly patient.
I could quibble about the,",under President Trump's strong leadership" malarkey, and "being ready to sign the deal..."
At the moment I believe Trump and Vance will try to himiliate him again. The discussion should be behind closed doors and a couple of European reps MUST be with him. Not only for support and balance, but also because Europe is supposed to be providing security post ceasefire.

I think Trump just wants the minerals for free - I can't see any security being offered by the US.
I wonder what the timing of the alternative European peace proposal is

That statement was clearly coordinated with Starmer, presumably Macron too. I think the whole point of their joint plan is precisely to ensure they tackle Trump together when the time comes.

I agree they will want to humiliate him - there’s already been some ridiculous comments about demanding a live apology on Fox News from Trump buttlickers.

There was an interesting comment on TRiP US about giving Trump a one-of-kind Hero of Ukraine gold medal. Lines up with my thought that Zelenskyy could win favour by offering to nominate Trump for the Peace prize.

It is a disgrace that this is what they have to consider doing, but the reality is they are dealing with a narcissist and normal rules of diplomacy do not apply.

Edit: source for my view that Starmer helped coordinated that statement

 

[Fungus]

I want to thank the many posters (I won’t name individuals, but you’ll know who are from the number of “likes” I’ve given you), both here and on the Trump thread…

For your endless patience in explaining, both for me and for the trolls, what the feck is actually going on in the world today, and also recent history. Normally I would just dip in and out of these threads, but I’ve made a point of reading the lot (with the exception of a few trolls on ignore), and I’ve learned a lot of important stuff, it’s really helping.

Thank you!