[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[Eric the meek]

All those points are obvious to us in the free and democratic west, although they need to be emphasised a bit more.

But the problem is Russia of course. Russia believes that they are entitled to a veto on all those things. I suspect it is because they still view Ukraine as not an independent nation state, but a part of Russia.

The west somehow needs a way to persuade Russia that their sense of entitlement to a veto, does not apply.

 

[GoldstoneVintage]

What do people really feel about the whole Trump / Krasnov / being recruited by the KGB in 1987 thing?

Do you believe it is true?
Do you believe it is nonsense?
Are you on the fence?

There is obviously no right or wrong answer, as there isn't a smoking gun. If there ever was one, it is long gone.

I'm usually an evidence-based kind of bloke, but I've never really taken the time to sit down to read the accounts of it all.
I'm open to the possibility though. Some of the recent events - wow.

Despite the lack of a smoking gun, there is a shed load of circumstantial evidence.

Besides, here's my logic:

Did he travel to Russia in 1987 as a prominent US businessman? Yes.

At this time was it standard practice for KGB to get involved and assess the likelihood of him being useful to them? Yes.

Does Trump have the type of personality that would be susceptible to KGB active measures? Yes.

Has he personally benefitted from his association with Russian businessmen over the decades? Yes.

We're some of these Russian businessmen connected to the KGB? Yes.

Were some of these deals 'sweetheart deals' where despite Trump making millions, it's hard to see what the other (Russian) party was gaining? Yes.

Did Russia launch an unprecedented interference campaign to have him elected? Yes (Twice).

Did they ever interfere to this extent before in US elections? No.

Has Trump, in his capacity as president, ever spoken or enacted policy in support of Russia even to the point of undermining his own country?

There is more, but need I say more?

 

[Eric the meek]

Despite the lack of a smoking gun, there is a shed load of circumstantial evidence.

Besides, here's my logic:

Did he travel to Russia in 1987 as a prominent US businessman? Yes.

At this time was it standard practice for KGB to get involved and assess the likelihood of him being useful to them? Yes.

Does Trump have the type of personality that would be susceptible to KGB active measures? Yes.

Has he personally benefitted from his association with Russian businessmen over the decades? Yes.

We're some of these Russian businessmen connected to the KGB? Yes.

Were some of these deals 'sweetheart deals' where despite Trump making millions, it's hard to see what the other (Russian) party was gaining? Yes.

Did Russia launch an unprecedented interference campaign to have him elected? Yes (Twice).

Did they ever interfere to this extent before in US elections? No.

Has Trump, in his capacity as president, ever spoken or enacted policy in support of Russia even to the point of undermining his own country?

There is more, but need I say more?

Thanks for your reply. Thanks also to Beorhthelm.

There's nothing else for it - I'm going to have to bite the bullet and read up on the history of it all.

 

[Triggaaar]

As much as this might trigger a Tantrum(p), you love to see it.

Macron's reply is confusing. He doesn't say 'No, it's not a loan, it's aid', he's says something about 60% and then something about loans, it's not very clear.

 

[Triggaaar]

All those points are obvious to us in the free and democratic west, although they need to be emphasised a bit more.

But the problem is Russia of course. Russia believes that they are entitled to a veto on all those things.

I'm not sure Russia believes they're entitled to a veto, they just want to get whatever they can. They make many claims undermining Ukraine, NATO, Europe, but it doesn't mean they believe them.

The west somehow needs a way to persuade Russia that their sense of entitlement to a veto, does not apply.

I don't think we need to persuade them, we need to defeat them.

 

[Seasider78]

Macron's reply is confusing. He doesn't say 'No, it's not a loan, it's aid', he's says something about 60% and then something about loans, it's not very clear.

As I heard it he said 60% was straight up aid the rest loans but not loans they are expecting Ukraine to pay loans that would be repaid through held Russian assets as part of the broader negotiations with Putin.

 

[Scappa]

Despite the lack of a smoking gun, there is a shed load of circumstantial evidence.

Besides, here's my logic:

Did he travel to Russia in 1987 as a prominent US businessman? Yes.

At this time was it standard practice for KGB to get involved and assess the likelihood of him being useful to them? Yes.

Does Trump have the type of personality that would be susceptible to KGB active measures? Yes.

Has he personally benefitted from his association with Russian businessmen over the decades? Yes.

We're some of these Russian businessmen connected to the KGB? Yes.

Were some of these deals 'sweetheart deals' where despite Trump making millions, it's hard to see what the other (Russian) party was gaining? Yes.

Did Russia launch an unprecedented interference campaign to have him elected? Yes (Twice).

Did they ever interfere to this extent before in US elections? No.

Has Trump, in his capacity as president, ever spoken or enacted policy in support of Russia even to the point of undermining his own country?

There is more, but need I say more?

Wind back to 1977 when he married Ivana Velnickova - that will be when he was first identified as a potential asset by the KGB and their Czechoslovakian counterparts.

 

[GoldstoneVintage]

question that answers this for me is what did Trump do for Russia in his first term, and why didn't Russia take advantage? cant think of anything of note and they waited until Biden in office to invade Ukraine. i reckon if any truth to it would have come out to the US services decades ago, and they'd not have allowed him anywhere near politics.

In answer to your first question, here's a list (courtesy of ChatGPT).

During his first presidency (2017–2021), Donald Trump took several actions and made statements that were perceived as "Russia-friendly" by critics and analysts. Here are some key points:

1. Public Praise of Vladimir Putin​

• Trump repeatedly praised Russian President Vladimir Putin, calling him a strong leader and downplaying concerns about his authoritarianism.
• During the 2016 campaign and his presidency, Trump often dismissed U.S. intelligence agencies' assessments that Russia interfered in the election.

2. Helsinki Summit (2018)​

• During a joint press conference with Putin, Trump appeared to side with Russia over U.S. intelligence agencies regarding election interference.
• He said:
  

  "President Putin says it’s not Russia. I don’t see any reason why it would be."

• This statement sparked bipartisan criticism in the U.S.

3. Delay in Sanctions & Opposition to Some Sanctions​

• While Congress overwhelmingly passed sanctions against Russia in 2017 (CAATSA – Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act), Trump hesitated before signing it and called it "flawed."
• His administration initially delayed implementing sanctions related to election interference.

4. NATO & Undermining Alliances​

• Trump frequently criticized NATO and suggested the U.S. might not defend members who don’t pay enough toward defense.
• His skepticism about NATO aligned with Russia’s goal of weakening the alliance.

5. U.S. Troop Withdrawal from Syria (2019)​

• Trump ordered a withdrawal of U.S. troops from northern Syria, which allowed Russia to expand its influence in the region.
• This was seen as a geopolitical win for Moscow, as Russian forces quickly moved into vacated areas.

6. Soft Stance on Ukraine (Pre-2022 Invasion)​

• Unlike later Republican positions, Trump was hesitant in supporting Ukraine militarily.
• His administration did approve lethal aid (Javelin missiles) to Ukraine, but he also froze military aid in 2019, allegedly to pressure Ukraine into investigating Joe Biden (leading to his first impeachment).

7. Attempt to Bring Russia Back into the G7​

• Trump advocated for Russia’s reinstatement into the G7 (it was expelled in 2014 after annexing Crimea).
• Other world leaders resisted, citing Russia's continued aggression in Ukraine.

8. Departure from Traditional Anti-Russia Rhetoric​

• Trump often avoided harsh criticism of Putin personally, even when Congress and his own administration took actions against Russia.
• In contrast, previous presidents (both Republican and Democrat) took a tougher rhetorical stance.

Personally, I think he would have gone further if Covid had not become the global priority. I also think that Putin's plan to invade Ukraine was hatched in expectation of a second Trump term. However, when it didn't happen, he calculated that he should invade anyway as military preparations would have been extensive and hard to shelve for 4 years.

 

[raymondo]

All those points are obvious to us in the free and democratic west, although they need to be emphasised a bit more.

But the problem is Russia of course. Russia believes that they are entitled to a veto on all those things. I suspect it is because they still view Ukraine as not an independent nation state, but a part of Russia.

The west somehow needs a way to persuade Russia that their sense of entitlement to a veto, does not apply.

I think only a solid defeat may dent their sense of entitlement, or rather it would make it irrelevant. I don't think it will 'ever' go away, seems to be part of their make up.

 

[Seasider78]

Having watched the exchanges today I think Macron has played an absolute blinder in exposing the orange man baby in front of a watching America. Not only has he made their position look stupid he has debunked the lies and put trump in a position where Macron has stated the US should be compensated by the aggressor Russia not Ukraine blowing his mineral deal out the water.

Today combined with the US aligning with some pretty unpleasant company in the UN vote is rapidly reinforcing Trumps administration as Russian plants and apologists. Being in bed with the old enemy won’t play out well even with the most loyal MAGA morons.

Trumps face today said it all he had no bravado and confidence and looked like a fool who had been schooled and can see the EU have given him enough rope to hang himself.

 

[Bodian]

Having watched the exchanges today I think Macron has played an absolute blinder in exposing the orange man baby in front of a watching America. Not only has he made their position look stupid he has debunked the lies and put trump in a position where Macron has stated the US should be compensated by the aggressor Russia not Ukraine blowing his mineral deal out the water.

Today combined with the US aligning with some pretty unpleasant company in the UN vote is rapidly reinforcing Trumps administration as Russian plants and apologists. Being in bed with the old enemy won’t play out well even with the most loyal MAGA morons.

Trumps face today said it all he had no bravado and confidence and looked like a fool who had been schooled and can see the EU have given him enough rope to hang himself.

On Fox News as well - so there's a chance his MAGA gang will have seen it.

 

[marlowe]

I love that. I have to keep watching it on a loop.

 

[Eric the meek]

I think only a solid defeat may dent their sense of entitlement, or rather it would make it irrelevant. I don't think it will 'ever' go away, seems to be part of their make up.

I take your point, and Triggaaar's point about a solid defeat. I agree about the need for that.

But we need to avoid Russians being bitter and revanchist after Ukraine wins the war. That's why Zelensky wants a 'just and lasting peace'.

We, the west, don't just need to win the war. We also need to win the peace. Otherwise they will be back again. And Ukraine, and other neighbours of Russia will be forever living in fear of invasion.

 

[raymondo]

As per the Kyiv Independent, this is a quote from Musk at the CPAC Conference:

"What are they dying for? What exactly are they dying for? The line of engagement has barely moved for two years. People are dead in trenches, and for what?" Musk said at the Conservative Political Action Conference (CPAC).

Without providing evidence and repeating unfounded claims, he added: "I'll tell you what for, for the biggest graft machine I've ever seen in my life."

So, pushing the same old bullshit and clearly supporting the narrative of Russian propagandists.

 

[armchairclubber]

I love that. I have to keep watching it on a loop.

And as was quoted underneath;

This should act as inspiration to everyone who sits next to Trump while he spews lies and disinformation. Cut him off, correct him. He buckles every time he’s challenged.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Still struggling to comprehend the US being an ally of Russia.

That’s happening before our eyes. The US vetoing a UN resolution to condemn the Russian invasion is a huge moment in history.

Make America Great Again by siding with a nation with no democracy that has invaded another nation. Just what the actual f***!!

 

[raymondo]

I take your point, and Triggaaar's point about a solid defeat. I agree about the need for that.

But we need to avoid Russians being bitter and revanchist after Ukraine wins the war. That's why Zelensky wants a 'just and lasting peace'.

We, the west, don't just need to win the war. We also need to win the peace. Otherwise they will be back again. And Ukraine, and other neighbours of Russia will be forever living in fear of invasion.

I agree, but I'm at a loss as to how we, the West, can win the peace. A new enlightened leader of Russia might have a chance over time....from within, but personally I'm extremely pessimistic.
Europe and Russia's other neighbors need to make themselves strong.

 

[raymondo]

Still struggling to comprehend the US being an ally of Russia.

That’s happening before our eyes. The US vetoing a UN resolution to condemn the Russian invasion is a huge moment in history.

Make America Great Again by siding with a nation with no democracy that has invaded another nation. Just what the actual f***!!

Absolutely, and we are right to remind ourselves frequently that it is fxcking shocking.
Does half of America even comprehend what's happening .

 

[Sirnormangall]

On Fox News as well - so there's a chance his MAGA gang will have seen it.

It was heartening too, over the weekend, to see that a number of Republican senators and other senior officials and former officials had publicly criticised Trump for his comments about Zelensky and support of Putin.

 

[armchairclubber]

Still struggling to comprehend the US being an ally of Russia.

If you look a little deeper you may like to question who all nations are allies of, including the UK.