We've provided 10,000 drones but they're manufacturing 2.5 million themselves. Maybe we can find a better way to support them.Here's UK Govt official position as chair of the summit. Some interesting detail (amongst the blah blah), e.g. we've provided 10,000 drones to Ukraine this past year.
UK leads major Ukraine Summit and announces £150 million firepower package
Defence leaders from across the world have gathered in Brussels today as the UK convenes a major Ukraine summit at NATO HQ.www.gov.uk
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[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)
- Thread starter vegster
- Start date
Yes it's mad. Trump doesn't want to pay for it or to provide anything useful. I think Putin and Zelenskyy are just trying to keep him on-side, rather than make an enemy of him.I agree it's clear, but of course I worry about Trump ploughing his own furrow.
Weird isn't it, that Trump is the power broker (supposedly...on the side of the West), but has said it's Europe's job to support the result.
I'd love to know what Zelenskyy is demanding in the peace negotiations. Ukraine can't take their land back by force, but they can defend the land they have, and as long as the war continues and sanctions remain, Russia will eventually fall.
Sure - if they're given Crimea, so long as the bridge isn't mentioned, drop it.
Fair point - just give them the money and material to do it.
Yeah money or missiles and tanks etc
Ali_rrr
Well-known member
Reeves could spend a gazillion on defence but unlike the Ukrainians who are still blood and soil patriots, the same cannot be said about this country.
Just 4 in 10 Young Britons Proud to Be British, Only 11% Would Fight for It, The Times/YouGov Poll Finds
The Times and YouGov study reveals that only 41% of Britons aged 18 to 27 take pride in being British—less than half the figure recorded in similar research twosearch.app
I have no doubt these findings echo the state of the U.K. youth and even wider views pre Gen Z generations. We’d be better off stepping back from interfering in international affairs and de arming. Let those who want to fight for Ukraine or Palestine do so.
Don't agree with your last sentence as I feel in Europe we have somewhat of a responsbility, but in regard to the research it doesn't surprise me. The complete disdain a large number of 60+ have for young people in the UK is probably a large factor. I'm more than sure this article is going to get certain fractions of the population foaming at the mouth too.
The way a lot of them talk about war you'd have thought they had fought in multiple. I myself would only take up arms if the UK was being invaded, otherwise no chance. I'd die to keep friends and family safe, not for someone whose only interest is profit.
happypig
Staring at the rude boys
If Putin wants peace all he has to do is withdraw all his troops, claiming his "special military operation" was a success. Hell, he could even paint it as a win to the Russians and hold a victory parade in Red Square.
armchairclubber
Well-known member
It makes no sense at all does it? And conveniently ignores the fact that the UK has actually supported Israel in its war and not Palestine, which it does not even recognise (so if fighting for Palestine you'd effectively be fighting against the British)
It raises a further question. Why would anyone want to sign up to the British forces when some of the electorate voting in these Governments have so little understanding?
- Aug 24, 2020
- 7,960
Exactly.The Kremlin?
If you are a peaceful, independent sovereign nation, who has been invaded by a brutal aggressor, whose leader is on record as saying your nation has no right to exist, and who has lied repeatedly while murdering your citizens, raping the women and abducting the children, why wouldn't you go for the heart of the regime? Never mind the Kerch bridge. As you are fighting an existential war, you might as well plan to go for the epicentre of the enemy. Research their defences. Systematically take them out. Shape the battlefield. Move the battlefield from Ukraine to Russia. First, take down the economy. Then go for the seat of power.
I have no doubt Zelenskyy is genuine in wanting a 'just and lasting peace'. Indeed, he has agreed to let the US have the rare earths in return for peace. But just in case the details of the peace deal don't look all that great, or on the off chance he decides that Putin can't be trusted, then he is going to have a plan B, if only so that he can approach the peace talks from a position of strength, and doesn't have to accept what he calls a 'bad peace'.
His plan B will be to win the war. A weakened Kremlin will be too good to turn down. At the risk of sounding like Jake Broe, 2.5 million drones a year, are not going to stop. Russia cannot defend itself against them.
- Oct 20, 2022
- 7,940
There may need to be a pragmatic resolution to this conflict with Zelenskyy ‘conceding‘ that the illegally annexed Crimean Peninsular is off the table at least for the foreseeable future. I think Trump is right in that to regain land borders as they were pre-2014 would require much more military might than Europe or Ukraine are able to commit but that absolutely shouldn’t be at the expense of not joining NATO (or conceding any territory taken in the latest invasion) - that is Ukraine’s security card for the future (as flimsy as the ‘Alliance’ now is thanks to Trump).
He is absolutely morally wrong however, to talk or agree to meet Putin before meeting Zelenskyy or without Zelenskyy being present. Ukrainian territory is NOT his to concede. As predicted, Trump‘s way of ‘ending’ the war in Ukraine is through appeasement with an invading and illegally occupying dictator. He has done exactly the same with Gaza.
It wouldn’t surprise me frankly if Trump is thinking of ‘relocating’ Ukrainians in occupied areas of Ukraine to other Countries and dreaming of making real estate deals with his Russian Oligarch friends in Moscow to build Trump Tower hotels and casinos on the ‘Black Sea Riviera’ between Mariupol and Odessa.
EDIT - and just to add the idea that Trump could be thinking of building hotels and resorts in Ukraine in partnership with Russian oligarchs isn’t as farfetched as that sounds because he’s thought about it before (and has Russian investment in his property port folio)
Running out of superlatives and epithets for this twunt.
He is absolutely morally wrong however, to talk or agree to meet Putin before meeting Zelenskyy or without Zelenskyy being present. Ukrainian territory is NOT his to concede. As predicted, Trump‘s way of ‘ending’ the war in Ukraine is through appeasement with an invading and illegally occupying dictator. He has done exactly the same with Gaza.
It wouldn’t surprise me frankly if Trump is thinking of ‘relocating’ Ukrainians in occupied areas of Ukraine to other Countries and dreaming of making real estate deals with his Russian Oligarch friends in Moscow to build Trump Tower hotels and casinos on the ‘Black Sea Riviera’ between Mariupol and Odessa.
EDIT - and just to add the idea that Trump could be thinking of building hotels and resorts in Ukraine in partnership with Russian oligarchs isn’t as farfetched as that sounds because he’s thought about it before (and has Russian investment in his property port folio)
Running out of superlatives and epithets for this twunt.
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That's nonsense. We have supplied arms to many countries. It's not correct to say that it's the British fighting when those weapons are used.
Not Andy Naylor
Well-known member
Trump and his people are utterly useless negotiators. Why on earth would you come out and say that Ukraine joining NATO is off the table before you’ve even started talks? You’ve handed Putin one of his basic demands without him having to give anything in return. They’re so keen to be seen to act tough that they aren’t thinking straight.
- Aug 24, 2020
- 7,960
The BBC Six O'Clock news has just had an article on the widening gap between Ukraine/EU/UK and the US.
It's difficult to avoid concluding that Trump's team are not on top of this at all. Whether it's an individual at fault, such as Pete Hegseth, I'm not sure, but he does seem to be constantly firefighting after ill-judged comments. He may be negotiating a very steep learning curve.
Here is the latest BBC digest on it. Note that Bosnia and Georgia are also applying to join NATO.
Ukraine will take part in any peace talks, Russia says - live updates
It comes after Zelensky said Ukraine would not accept any deal brokered between Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin without Kyiv's involvement.
www.bbc.co.uk
Edit: I forgot to mention that it is left to er, Russia, to reassure Ukraine that it will, of course, be involved in negotiations....
(I'm really not sure what to make of that, but I think my conclusion is not good).
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armchairclubber
Well-known member
That's not actually what I said though is it?
I said that 'the UK has supported Israel in its war and not Palestine, which it does not even recognise (so if fighting for Palestine you'd effectively be fighting against the British)'
You would hardly be fighting with (meaning alongside) UK / British forces if you took up arms for Palestine now would you? (which is the point I was referring to from the earlier post)
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Yes, that is what you said. You're saying that people fighting for Palestine (eg, Hamas) are fighting against the British.
No, you wouldn't be fighting with UK / British forces, but you wouldn't be fighting against them either. We're not fighting there.
Ukraine should tell them to do one. Go ahead and have the peace talks without Ukraine, while Ukraine keep bombing all of Russia's assets and killing their troops. Idiots.
Sirnormangall
Well-known member
- Sep 21, 2017
- 3,342
I agree with much of what you say. I can’t see Putin accepting pre 2014 borders as it would be seen as a defeat. Neither can I see Zelensky conceding territory other than maybe Crimea. Trump’s main priority is probably the mineral rights and he won’t care whether the deal to get that done is with Russia or Ukraine.
It would be absolutely wrong for any peace negotiations to take place without Ukraine and if Trump intends to withdraw military support and / or require NATO to increase support, then NATO should also have a say in any negotiations.
Yes, and indeed he won't care where the mineral rights come from.