[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[sully]

It's coffee time, everyone. This message struck a strong chord with me. It's nothing about success on the battlefield; it's about how Russia has totally lost the hearts and minds of most Russian speaking Ukrainians.
This is exactly where my wife is, and her relatives and friends that remain in Ukraine or have fled. I'll let it speak for itself:

Anyone know what the (presumably) Russian words in there mean? (What they now call them)

 

[fly high]

Anyone know what the (presumably) Russian words in there mean? (What they now call them)

I looked it up, first word is non-human, second word seems to be fascist & name of the statue is plague or infection.

 

[fly high]

It's coffee time, everyone. This message struck a strong chord with me. It's nothing about success on the battlefield; it's about how Russia has totally lost the hearts and minds of most Russian speaking Ukrainians.
This is exactly where my wife is, and her relatives and friends that remain in Ukraine or have fled. I'll let it speak for itself:

Powerful stuff. Sadly it will not be heard in Russia & even if it is they won't understand why.

 

[raymondo]

Here's Putin (I know, I hate hearing his voice too) insulting European politicians and arse licking Trump.
Short segment from 4.30

 

[raymondo]

France will double its defence budget.

 

[raymondo]

How to stop the cost increase of the war effort....and not to put off volunteer recruits. Nice one

 

[fly high]

France will double its defence budget.

Hope our government is listening, rumoured they are going to delay any increase. Mad.

 

[PTC Gull]

And another bites the dust. Expect a "suspect" captured in the next few hours!

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c0rqj171zzvo

 

[Eric the meek]

It's coffee time, everyone. This message struck a strong chord with me. It's nothing about success on the battlefield; it's about how Russia has totally lost the hearts and minds of most Russian speaking Ukrainians.
This is exactly where my wife is, and her relatives and friends that remain in Ukraine or have fled. I'll let it speak for itself:

A few observations if I may.

The twitter account 'Twin Anna Pirates MD' was on my radar a week or two ago, as there was a very good but long post on it, which I thought of re-posting on here, but in the end I decided not to, or rather was reading other stuff and forgot to. You should be able to find it if you want to.

But with this obvious hatred and ill-feeling towards Russians (quite justified I hasten to add) from Ukrainians, I'm thinking that the peace is going to be even harder to win. I'm thinking that if the persecution of ethnic Russians / Russian speakers was the false flag followed by the invasion, then if they feel ostracised / persecuted following the war, then it might occur again.

All the more reason for Ukraine to do a proper job on Russia, disabling it totally, so that its chances of trying again are as near zero as possible.

 

[Triggaaar]

It's coffee time, everyone. This message struck a strong chord with me. It's nothing about success on the battlefield; it's about how Russia has totally lost the hearts and minds of most Russian speaking Ukrainians.
This is exactly where my wife is, and her relatives and friends that remain in Ukraine or have fled. I'll let it speak for itself:

That's quite the falling out

 

[Triggaaar]

But with this obvious hatred and ill-feeling towards Russians (quite justified I hasten to add) from Ukrainians, I'm thinking that the peace is going to be even harder to win. I'm thinking that if the persecution of ethnic Russians / Russian speakers was the false flag followed by the invasion, then if they feel ostracised / persecuted following the war, then it might occur again.

All the more reason for Ukraine to do a proper job on Russia, disabling it totally, so that its chances of trying again are as near zero as possible.

As you say, it was a false flag. Regardless whether or not Russians in Ukraine feel persecuted, Russia will invade again of the think they can win. So it makes no difference whether or not they are persecuted. All that matters is that Russia can't win. Either this time, or the next.

 

[raymondo]

Hope our government is listening, rumoured they are going to delay any increase. Mad.

Would absolutely be mad to delay an increase - if so I hope we get a public broadside from both the EU and US.

 

[Eric the meek]

Would absolutely be mad to delay an increase - if so I hope we get a public broadside from both the EU and US.

The first job of any government is the security of the realm.

 

[Eric the meek]

As you say, it was a false flag. Regardless whether or not Russians in Ukraine feel persecuted, Russia will invade again of the think they can win. So it makes no difference whether or not they are persecuted. All that matters is that Russia can't win. Either this time, or the next.

I see what you are saying. Any persecution of Russians post-war is just a sideshow.

One thing I would add to 'all that matters is Russia can't win' is 'Russians should be made acutely aware that they can't win' at any point in the future. So Ukraine has to win decisively, to persuade Russians that their arrogance is misplaced, and they are not the world-conquering force they had been told they were.

I would also add that sanctions should remain in place for a long time so that reparations are paid in full, and there is little chance of Russia building up another war chest.

 

[raymondo]

A few observations if I may.

The twitter account 'Twin Anna Pirates MD' was on my radar a week or two ago, as there was a very good but long post on it, which I thought of re-posting on here, but in the end I decided not to, or rather was reading other stuff and forgot to. You should be able to find it if you want to.

But with this obvious hatred and ill-feeling towards Russians (quite justified I hasten to add) from Ukrainians, I'm thinking that the peace is going to be even harder to win. I'm thinking that if the persecution of ethnic Russians / Russian speakers was the false flag followed by the invasion, then if they feel ostracised / persecuted following the war, then it might occur again.

All the more reason for Ukraine to do a proper job on Russia, disabling it totally, so that its chances of trying again are as near zero as possible.

Yes, I think the peace can only be won by absolute security guarantees.
As Trig alsosays, Russia will invade again (whenever) if they think they can win.

And, apart from being in NATO (and I'm not even convinced about that as a security guarantee), the only other way is as you say a total (well, it's never total, but...) disabling of Russia.

I'm probably not the only one on this thread who is very nervous/terrified even of a ceasefire that pretty much freezes the current front line,- where the hell do Ukraine go from that position .

With Trump's actions on trade tarifs to his trading partners (ffs) I'm not convinced that he won't sell Ukraine down the river.

Just keep dropping debris on those oil and gas facilities, guys. A fire a day keeps the Russians at bay.

 

[raymondo]

The first job of any government is the security of the realm.

Agreed - I hope we get in the mindset of the Baltics, Poland and now Macron.

 

[raymondo]

I see what you are saying. Any persecution of Russians post-war is just a sideshow.

One thing I would add to 'all that matters is Russia can't win' is 'Russians should be made acutely aware that they can't win' at any point in the future. So Ukraine has to win decisively, to persuade Russians that their arrogance is misplaced, and they are not the world-conquering force they had been told they were.

I would also add that sanctions should remain in place for a long time so that reparations are paid in full, and there is little chance of Russia building up another war chest.

Agree with that...except I don't think they'll be persuaded their arrogance is misplaced. Still, if their country's neutered then I don't care what they feel.

 

[Triggaaar]

I'm probably not the only one on this thread who is very nervous/terrified even of a ceasefire that pretty much freezes the current front line,- where the hell do Ukraine go from that position .

You're certainly not the only one, but surely we can add Zelenskyy and his team to that. They won't want to accept a ceasefire that allows Russia to regroup and go again.

 

[Eric the meek]

You're certainly not the only one, but surely we can add Zelenskyy and his team to that. They won't want to accept a ceasefire that allows Russia to regroup and go again.

A while ago, we were discussing this scenario, and I remember your response was to the effect of 'Ukraine will carry on fighting'.

You were absolutely right. What's the alternative? Living in perpetual fear of another invasion? In such a scenario, Russia would torment Ukraine.

 

[raymondo]

A while ago, we were discussing this scenario, and I remember your response was to the effect of 'Ukraine will carry on fighting'.

You were absolutely right. What's the alternative? Living in perpetual fear of another invasion? In such a scenario, Russia would torment Ukraine.

Right, ...and to carry on fighting they'll need a supply of weapons.
They are doing a fantastic job on diy drones, and hopefully their long range missile project is moving along.

The EU and the UK are making the right noises about continuity of support, and so are Kellog and Rubio,; but too much depends on the madman in orange.

The worry of course is the unpredictability of Trump, and Europe's reaction to whatever he decides.