[Misc] Religion - the Church of England - what future?

[Kneon Light]

Religions tell non-believers that they are sinners or going to hell for not believing so forgive us if we are a little rude back.

If they are saying this to you think about why that may be. They are not saying it to be rude - they will be saying it because it is what they believe and they don't want that happening to you (going to hell that is).
In terms of being a sinner Christians believe that we are ALL sinners and that we can only be forgiven by God.

It is what Christians believe but I am still not seeing a reason to be rude.

Christianity does a lot of good every year (Cafod, Christian Aid etc) and most Christians will try and lead good lives and do good deeds. Not sure why there is so much hatred and rudeness aimed at them/us. It's why I rarely comment on religious threads - I just get mocked or have people be rude about my beliefs.

If you don't believe that's up to you - I just don't get the animosity toward people that do.

 

[One Love]

oh, ive missed out a nice Sunday debate on religion. reading through i think the bingo card is full, and without any meltdowns or flouncing.

The first mention of religion , an advice should be automatically posted,

See previous 1,932 threads

Note that no-one on either side of the debate as ever had their mind changed whatsoever.

Stop

 

[Stumpy Tim]

If you don't believe that's up to you - I just don't get the animosity toward people that do.

I haven't seen any animosity on this thread to believers, only to religion as a whole. Unfortunately many religious people take criticism of their beliefs as an attack on them. Criticism towards political views is ok, criticism of football team is ok, criticism of religion is apparently off limits. Given that religion claims to be the leader of morals this inability to accept criticism is at best concerning

 

[lawros left foot]

Im an atheist, I don't believe in any god, Jeudo-Christain, Moslem,or Pagan. Historically, religion of all kinds has caused more grief in people's lives, than ever it's helped.
I do think now, however that the current climate, in Christian countries, of tolerance in sexuality, race, gender and religious beliefs is more in line with Jesus teachings than ever the traditional CofE, Tory party at prayer,ever was.
With islam, a religion only about 1500 years old, maybe, all religions go through a kind of religious teething period, before they become stable. Christianity had many centuries of turmoil before it became the stable religion we now know.

 

[Luke93]

I’m sure many will disagree with me...

Leave it to decline. The world would be a better place without religion.

 

[Kneon Light]

I haven't seen any animosity on this thread to believers, only to religion as a whole. Unfortunately many religious people take criticism of their beliefs as an attack on them. Criticism towards political views is ok, criticism of football team is ok, criticism of religion is apparently off limits. Given that religion claims to be the leader of morals this inability to accept criticism is at best concerning

There is a big difference between criticism and mocking/belittling.
One shows respect while the other clearly doesn't

 

[Stumpy Tim]

There is a big difference between criticism and mocking/belittling.
One shows respect while the other clearly doesn't

Religion is the only thing I know of that people are not allowed to belittle or mock either. I’m sorry, but personally I don’t have any respect for religion, though that doesn’t mean I don’t respect you as a religious person. People have every right to criticise/mock/belittle religion... frankly it shouldn’t be as easy as it is

 

[skipper734]

You don't have to be religious at all. But you would be wise to use the Old Testaments Ten Commandments, as not a bad set of rules to use for your life. First four are religious, so I've left them out and brought the rest up to date.
“Honor your father and your mother
“You shall not murder.
“You shall not commit adultery.
“You shall not steal.
“You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour.
“You shall not covet your neighbour's house; you shall not covet your neighbour's wife his BMW or Bank account or anything that is your neighbour's.”
Neighbour in this contexts is any fellow human.

 

[sjamesb3466]

You don't have to be religious at all. But you would be wise to use the Old Testaments Ten Commandments, as not a bad set of rules to use for your life. First four are religious, so I've left them out and brought the rest up to date.
“Honor your father and your mother
“You shall not murder.
“You shall not commit adultery.
“You shall not steal.
“You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour.
“You shall not covet your neighbour's house; you shall not covet your neighbour's wife his BMW or Bank account or anything that is your neighbour's.”
Neighbour in this contexts is any fellow human.

Crap at embedding video but the below link is more my thoughts on the ten commandments.

[video]https://coub.com/view/3rez9[/video]

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Only read the first page but it is obvious innit? As Bertrand Russel wrote, to paraphrase, humans invented an afterlife when existence was awful, where most people were slaves or serfs, where the strong and cunning stole everything and created systems to perpetuate and venerate their privilage. Inventing an afterlife, and a benign but stern deity, kept people sane.

As more and more of us left slavery and serfdom, religions became less relevant, BUT the powers then realised they were a cracking means of keeping the serfs quiet. The Romans invented Christianity and other power elites invented alternatives. The Catholic church is the words longest running and most successful business. Give us your money and we will tell you what to do (mostly 'give us your money') and then you'll go to Heaven. Genius.

Fast forward to today, we see religion being most important among the peasants and folk who define themselves as oppressed or dispossessed. But you can see the whole process of devotion, unconcern, and finally rejection of religion in action in the UK. I am very hard pressed to remember the last time one of the nice middle class students I teach covered their head at college, or nipped off to pray during an all day practical. It happened 20 years ago, but now I'm teaching their kids. The parents have found that a good job, a pervasive London lifestyle, and workmates from other 'backgrounds' that morph into friends, makes imposing religion on the kids something they never get around to. Yes the kids engage with it, just like I was confirmed at St Nick's in Portslade in 1969. But there are too many distractons now - distractons called HAVING A GOOD LIFE. The next generation....obvously those stuck in the working class way won't change much, though.

Bertrand Russell in the 30s described Islam as the most tolerant of religions.....it has morphed as various power elites have changed it, inventing Fatwa and making the religion and its 'enemies' a focus for daily ranting. They ramp up the extremism to give devotion a greater piquancy.

The Islamic terrorism thing and the ISIS thing in particular is what happens when you have a power elite (e.g., as we see in Iran and Saudi Arabia), lots of thick peasant yoof with a chip on its shoulder, sexual morbidity, and lots of scope to use mores from the middle ages to subjugate (women in particular, but peasant women especially will put up with a lot for a full belly and security for the bairns - my white C of E Engish mum wasn't much different in the 50s, in England, FFS). All for the benefit of the local power elite.

And it helps 'militant Islam' to have a ready made bogey man in Israel. If hoards of the middle class white militant end of UK Labour spit at the mention of Israel you can see how easy it is in Syria, Iran and elsewhere to rant about next to nothing else....


In America, we assume there is so much wealth that religion seems a strange anomaly. Perhaps a resident of the states can explain that one? My suspicion is lazy mindedness and complacency, the sort that affects peasants badly and is the reason for the morbid obesity you see in so many Americans - give peasants unlimited money and they just gorge. Like pets - they will eat the treats till they are too fat to stand.

BTW, I am from solid peasant stock. Peasantry is not genetic and it is not immutable. Education kills it and replaces it with wealth which then provides experiences and the peasant life is forgotten. And when you cease to be a peasant, if you start to wonder about the country, the world, how things work, the universe, time (and motion) you realise there is no god. And more than that, without a god we do not inevitably reduce to rutting animals killing and eating one another. That's because we have Society, respect for laws, connections with other people, and interest in engaging. Life becomes.....amazing.

Sorry for the rant but this issue bugs me.

 

[Kneon Light]

Religion is the only thing I know of that people are not allowed to belittle or mock either. I’m sorry, but personally I don’t have any respect for religion, though that doesn’t mean I don’t respect you as a religious person. People have every right to criticise/mock/belittle religion... frankly it shouldn’t be as easy as it is

I just feel it is really sad that people cannot have a debate on religion without resorting to mocking/rudeness/belittling.

Getting back to the original theme sociology and criminology studies show that religion is one of the main factors that controls crime with religious people far less likely to commit crimes than non religious people (in the UK - do not know about studies overseas). It is clearly not the only factor (or even the main factor) but it does have an influence.

 

[chimneys]

The main point of religion for the most part is to be anything but divisive.

 

[sjamesb3466]

I just feel it is really sad that people cannot have a debate on religion without resorting to mocking/rudeness/belittling.

Getting back to the original theme sociology and criminology studies show that religion is one of the main factors that controls crime with religious people far less likely to commit crimes than non religious people (in the UK - do not know about studies overseas). It is clearly not the only factor (or even the main factor) but it does have an influence.

Religion is all about control and putting fear into people for wrongdoing is why religion exists. To control primitive populations and to give them a reason to toe the line. I suspect that poverty and individual upbringing have more influence on modern crime statistics than religious persuasion.

 

[Kneon Light]

Religion is all about control and putting fear into people for wrongdoing is why religion exists. To control primitive populations and to give them a reason to toe the line. I suspect that poverty and individual upbringing have more influence on modern crime statistics than religious persuasion.

You are entitled to your opinion on why religion exists but I completely disagree.
In terms of crime there are a number of factors (including family and wealth) but sociologists/criminologists agree that religion is an influencing factor with religious people found to commit less crime.

 

[Guinness Boy]

This is quite a radical association, it's not what I meant.

When I say society is missing core Christian values, I mean things like love thy neighbour, fidelity in marriage, forgiveness, unconditional love, and so on. Really positive things that frequently disappear with Christianity. Values which in part made the greatest generation so great.

But my point was the people leading the Western world are all Christians. Many of those views and morals are the views and morals of humanism too. Love thy neighbour? Maybe not called exactly that in such old fashinon, prescriptive terminology but that's good old fashioned hippy peace and love. Fidelity in marriage? To what point? Both of my parents are happier in their second marriages than they ever were married to one another. We're not monogamous creatures. Unconditional love? Plenty of Catholic Priests giving their choir boys a bit of that.

 

[Megazone]

Religion is all about control and putting fear into people for wrongdoing is why religion exists. To control primitive populations and to give them a reason to toe the line. I suspect that poverty and individual upbringing have more influence on modern crime statistics than religious persuasion.

Do you believe all religions around the world all began with this incentive?

What if the religions were manipulated and word twisted for power and control?

Maybe these religions began with the idea of love over greed and war?

Jesus certainly didn't seem the sort of guy to conform with whoever was in power.

Ps I'm not Christian

 

[Kneon Light]

Only read the first page but it is obvious innit? As Bertrand Russel wrote, to paraphrase, humans invented an afterlife when existence was awful, where most people were slaves or serfs, where the strong and cunning stole everything and created systems to perpetuate and venerate their privilage. Inventing an afterlife, and a benign but stern deity, kept people sane.

As more and more of us left slavery and serfdom, religions became less relevant, BUT the powers then realised they were a cracking means of keeping the serfs quiet. The Romans invented Christianity and other power elites invented alternatives. The Catholic church is the words longest running and most successful business. Give us your money and we will tell you what to do (mostly 'give us your money') and then you'll go to Heaven. Genius.

Fast forward to today, we see religion being most important among the peasants and folk who define themselves as oppressed or dispossessed. But you can see the whole process of devotion, unconcern, and finally rejection of religion in action in the UK. I am very hard pressed to remember the last time one of the nice middle class students I teach covered their head at college, or nipped off to pray during an all day practical. It happened 20 years ago, but now I'm teaching their kids. The parents have found that a good job, a pervasive London lifestyle, and workmates from other 'backgrounds' that morph into friends, makes imposing religion on the kids something they never get around to. Yes the kids engage with it, just like I was confirmed at St Nick's in Portslade in 1969. But there are too many distractons now - distractons called HAVING A GOOD LIFE. The next generation....obvously those stuck in the working class way won't change much, though.

Bertrand Russell in the 30s described Islam as the most tolerant of religions.....it has morphed as various power elites have changed it, inventing Fatwa and making the religion and its 'enemies' a focus for daily ranting. They ramp up the extremism to give devotion a greater piquancy.

The Islamic terrorism thing and the ISIS thing in particular is what happens when you have a power elite (e.g., as we see in Iran and Saudi Arabia), lots of thick peasant yoof with a chip on its shoulder, sexual morbidity, and lots of scope to use mores from the middle ages to subjugate (women in particular, but peasant women especially will put up with a lot for a full belly and security for the bairns - my white C of E Engish mum wasn't much different in the 50s, in England, FFS). All for the benefit of the local power elite.

And it helps 'militant Islam' to have a ready made bogey man in Israel. If hoards of the middle class white militant end of UK Labour spit at the mention of Israel you can see how easy it is in Syria, Iran and elsewhere to rant about next to nothing else....


In America, we assume there is so much wealth that religion seems a strange anomaly. Perhaps a resident of the states can explain that one? My suspicion is lazy mindedness and complacency, the sort that affects peasants badly and is the reason for the morbid obesity you see in so many Americans - give peasants unlimited money and they just gorge. Like pets - they will eat the treats till they are too fat to stand.

BTW, I am from solid peasant stock. Peasantry is not genetic and it is not immutable. Education kills it and replaces it with wealth which then provides experiences and the peasant life is forgotten. And when you cease to be a peasant, if you start to wonder about the country, the world, how things work, the universe, time (and motion) you realise there is no god. And more than that, without a god we do not inevitably reduce to rutting animals killing and eating one another. That's because we have Society, respect for laws, connections with other people, and interest in engaging. Life becomes.....amazing.

Sorry for the rant but this issue bugs me.

Disagree with pretty much everything you have written.
One question though - why do you think you cannot have an amazing life if you are a Christian?

 

[Felpham Seagull]

Heaven or hell apparently

 

[Kneon Light]

But my point was the people leading the Western world are all Christians. Many of those views and morals are the views and morals of humanism too. Love thy neighbour? Maybe not called exactly that in such old fashinon, prescriptive terminology but that's good old fashioned hippy peace and love. Fidelity in marriage? To what point? Both of my parents are happier in their second marriages than they ever were married to one another. We're not monogamous creatures. Unconditional love? Plenty of Catholic Priests giving their choir boys a bit of that.

They may claim they are but i would argue they are not a good representation of Christianity.

 

[sjamesb3466]

Do you believe all religions around the world all began with this incentive?

What if the religions were manipulated and word twisted for power and control?

Maybe these religions began with the idea of love over greed and war?

Jesus certainly didn't seem the sort of guy to conform with whoever was in power.

Ps I'm not Christian

I didn't say that's how religion started but my opinion is that power and control are undoubtedly the reason for their modern day existence. Maybe a better phrase would have been 'Modern religion is all about control... etc'.