[Albion] Ref watch

[Papa Lazarou]

Have you got any links as I hadn't heard anything to that effect. That said, the assistant on the nearside (from our fans) didn't do the same when Utd broke through. Play was allowed to progress and then the flag went up.

And Ronaldo was actually onside (If you're referring to the one were Bob made that world class save from Rashford).

The Welbeck one is a textbook example of why you don't flag early. The error might have prevented a goal, and definitely erroneously prevented a goalscoring opportunity.

 

[trueblue]

They haven't been told to flag the tighter calls. They've been told to flag the really obvious ones rather than waiting to see how play develops.

Ok. Badly phrased but I thought the gist was fairly obvious. They will be flagging ones where last year they would have waited to see how play develops, particularly if the ball is out on the flanks. So some of the calls that are flagged will be tighter than the ones they were flagging last season.

 

[Acker79]

And that's kinda my point/the problem. I've said from the beginning that I thought it was CRAZY to bring in VAR in the first place, without a proper trial and evaluation period.

Products don't typically make it to market without being tested to their limits, shoved in front of various focus groups and signed off by people in authority. VAR is – and always has been – a shambles. It should've (and could've) been spot on from the start. Instead, the PL/FA whoever, cocked it up completely and now no-one understands it fully (as threads such as this one prove), fewer people want it and the people running football have completely messed up an opportunity to use technology to actually help the game and clear up and issues from it.

I'm saying I don't believe that is possible. People all want different things from VAR from it not being used at all, to it being used for every decision and everything in between. So there will always be a section that is loudly complaining and wanting changes, and every year pgmol/the premier league will take those complaints on board and try to tweak it.

It isn't just about VAR, it's also the general refereeing issues that underpin VAR - they are working to implement laws on the basis of football being a competition and laws being consistent, fans pundits, journalists want the laws implemented with entertainment as the driving force, working to different standards will lead to refs making decisions that are right from their perspective, and fundamentally wrong from ours. VAR can't fix that.

Then there's the issue that we (fans, pundits, journalists, players, managers etc) struggle with the idea of subjective decisions where there aren't 'wrong' decisions, just 'different decisions' - we say the ref got it wrong when in fact he just has a different opinion (and the laws make it clear it's his opinion that matters), meaning we get upset when a ref's decision doesn't match ours and claim VAR should have corrected a decision that wasn't actually "wrong". This is something that also is compounded by us not necessarily knowing the current laws of the game, or specific instructions to refs. This is also something VAR can't fix, but in truth is one of the main things underpinning all complaints about VAR and refereeing.

And some of it is willful ignorance. We dont' want to challenge our own views, we just want refs to do everything we (as specific individuals) think is the right decision (irrespective of any ignorance or biases we have, or that what I think is the right decision very well could be different to what you think is the right decision). Look at the clamour for fans to see the video replay as if it matters, as if we have a say in any decision and need to review it to make sure the right decision is made; how we can't work out what is going on or why the referee has disallowed that goal as if decades of seeing the ref tap his arm to indicate a handball or hold one arm up while gesturing a line across the pitch to indicate offside is suddenly forgotten, and we need freeze frames and words on a screen to really understand.

We see it ith the constant changing of the Laws of the Game. Every year there are tweaks to the laws, and issues getting used to them. It will be the same for VAR.

 

[Greg Bobkin]

I'm saying I don't believe that is possible. People all want different things from VAR from it not being used at all, to it being used for every decision and everything in between. So there will always be a section that is loudly complaining and wanting changes, and every year pgmol/the premier league will take those complaints on board and try to tweak it.

It isn't just about VAR, it's also the general refereeing issues that underpin VAR - they are working to implement laws on the basis of football being a competition and laws being consistent, fans pundits, journalists want the laws implemented with entertainment as the driving force, working to different standards will lead to refs making decisions that are right from their perspective, and fundamentally wrong from ours. VAR can't fix that.

Then there's the issue that we (fans, pundits, journalists, players, managers etc) struggle with the idea of subjective decisions where there aren't 'wrong' decisions, just 'different decisions' - we say the ref got it wrong when in fact he just has a different opinion (and the laws make it clear it's his opinion that matters), meaning we get upset when a ref's decision doesn't match ours and claim VAR should have corrected a decision that wasn't actually "wrong". This is something that also is compounded by us not necessarily knowing the current laws of the game, or specific instructions to refs. This is also something VAR can't fix, but in truth is one of the main things underpinning all complaints about VAR and refereeing.

And some of it is willful ignorance. We dont' want to challenge our own views, we just want refs to do everything we (as specific individuals) think is the right decision (irrespective of any ignorance or biases we have, or that what I think is the right decision very well could be different to what you think is the right decision). Look at the clamour for fans to see the video replay as if it matters, as if we have a say in any decision and need to review it to make sure the right decision is made; how we can't work out what is going on or why the referee has disallowed that goal as if decades of seeing the ref tap his arm to indicate a handball or hold one arm up while gesturing a line across the pitch to indicate offside is suddenly forgotten, and we need freeze frames and words on a screen to really understand.

We see it ith the constant changing of the Laws of the Game. Every year there are tweaks to the laws, and issues getting used to them. It will be the same for VAR.

So bin it off. If it's never going to be work properly (essentially, not causing long conversations/complaints about it), then admit that they've tried it, it hasn't worked and we were better off without it.

I see what you're saying, but VAR now becomes the talking point, which is not good. Plus, the tweaks don't go far enough. Put the audio across into the TVs and stadiums, so people can try to UNDERSTAND why the decisions are made.

 

[Quinney]

And Ronaldo was actually onside (If you're referring to the one were Bob made that world class save from Rashford).

The Welbeck one is a textbook example of why you don't flag early. The error might have prevented a goal, and definitely erroneously prevented a goalscoring opportunity.

https://twitter.com/charlottebhafc/status/1556919308546035714?s=21&t=Zm-rNU9FCPam26xrEdZt1g

This is Welbeck being flagged offside in the first half. Looks too close to call, why not play on and go back to it if a goal is scored, as they did for United in the second half. Shocking bias.


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[Papa Lazarou]

https://twitter.com/charlottebhafc/status/1556919308546035714?s=21&t=Zm-rNU9FCPam26xrEdZt1g

This is Welbeck being flagged offside in the first half. Looks too close to call, why not play on and go back to it if a goal is scored, as they did for United in the second half. Shocking bias.


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He's on there. W**kers.

 

[Icy Gull]

He's on there. W**kers.

The montage of his game on Sunday is there too. Even more awesome than I remembered it. He’s a beast and Maguire just can’t handle him

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

https://twitter.com/charlottebhafc/status/1556919308546035714?s=21&t=Zm-rNU9FCPam26xrEdZt1g

This is Welbeck being flagged offside in the first half. Looks too close to call, why not play on and go back to it if a goal is scored, as they did for United in the second half. Shocking bias.


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And this highlights what is wrong IMO with [MENTION=12595]Acker79[/MENTION] post it's not really the change in laws or whether XY or X ref looks at the game slightly differently, it's the fact those on field and those watching screens getting basics wrong. The assistant ref hasn't had any instruction to give close calls, in fact the opposite, to allow play to develop. The penalty call was frankly disgusting. The ref, the assistant, the VAR ref the VAR assistant all contrived to get the wrong decision. A decision even an ardent Utd fan would honestly say was a penalty. It has cock all to do the laws of the game, current directives, new season slowness. It's down to 100% incompetence. Those people should not have any involvement in any game this weekend. There's just no excuse. The red card is down to force etc etc and I can live with that but the penalty beggars belief.

 

[Seagull58]

So Paul Tierney, who shall we say ‘missed’ a few things on Sunday, is this week the VAR for ManU’s next game.

Tierney who lives in Salford. It is very strange. They know it's dodgy and they don't care.

 

[Machiavelli]

So bin it off. If it's never going to be work properly (essentially, not causing long conversations/complaints about it), then admit that they've tried it, it hasn't worked and we were better off without it.

I see what you're saying, but VAR now becomes the talking point, which is not good. Plus, the tweaks don't go far enough. Put the audio across into the TVs and stadiums, so people can try to UNDERSTAND why the decisions are made.

Are you saying that it needs binning off because it doesn't yield perfection?
If so, you have overambitious expectations.
Would you want to bin a referee because they don't deliver perfection?

 

[Acker79]

And this highlights what is wrong IMO with [MENTION=12595]Acker79[/MENTION] post it's not really the change in laws or whether XY or X ref looks at the game slightly differently, it's the fact those on field and those watching screens getting basics wrong. The assistant ref hasn't had any instruction to give close calls, in fact the opposite, to allow play to develop. The penalty call was frankly disgusting. The ref, the assistant, the VAR ref the VAR assistant all contrived to get the wrong decision. A decision even an ardent Utd fan would honestly say was a penalty. It has cock all to do the laws of the game, current directives, new season slowness. It's down to 100% incompetence. Those people should not have any involvement in any game this weekend. There's just no excuse. The red card is down to force etc etc and I can live with that but the penalty beggars belief.

For the record, my comments are about the general problem of VAR, and was not intended to suggest I don't think refs ever make mistakes (that could/should be corrected by VAR), or that the non-penalty sepcifically wasn't a mistake. As I've said elsewhere, even taking on board the reported instructions to raise the bar for how much contact is need for a challenge to be ruled a foul, the ref had established a threashold with challenges earlier in the match that this challenge more than met and it should have been given.

With regard to the offsides, watching on TV live and with replay I thought Welbeck was clearly off side. Even looking at the tweet I think that line is misleading. It is a line painted on a 2D picture, it does not have anything like the accuracy of the computer generated lines used by VAR, which takes info from multiple cameras to account for dimensions, depth of field etc. If I zoom in on the picture and ignore the line, it still looks offside to me.

I think the reason the Welbeck offside was flagged straight away is because it was so close to the halfway line. https://www.premierleague.com/news/1833470 "When an immediate goalscoring opportunity is likely to occur, the assistant referee will keep their flag down if they think there is an offside until the passage of play is completed." We see fouls in the middle of the pitch only get a yellow, because there's so far to go for there to be a goal scoring opportunity as opposed to the same foul outside the box seeing a red card for denying a goal scoring opportunity. This is in line with that approach. Welbeck's offside was close to the halfway line with two defenders near by, so no 'immediate goalscoring opportunity'. As far as I remember it, the united claim was closer to goal, and thus closer to a goal scoring opportunity, though I might be wrong about that and it could still be refereeing inconsistency. But that is why they didn't play on for Welbeck.

 

[drew]

And that's kinda my point/the problem. I've said from the beginning that I thought it was CRAZY to bring in VAR in the first place, without a proper trial and evaluation period.

Products don't typically make it to market without being tested to their limits, shoved in front of various focus groups and signed off by people in authority. VAR is – and always has been – a shambles. It should've (and could've) been spot on from the start. Instead, the PL/FA whoever, cocked it up completely and now no-one understands it fully (as threads such as this one prove), fewer people want it and the people running football have completely messed up an opportunity to use technology to actually help the game and clear up and issues from it.

It was trialled before being introduced here. It was used in the 2018 world cup and in other major European leagues before we introduced it here. The problem is the operators, not the system. As VAR, Brooks had two possible correct decisions, tell Tierney it was a penalty or to tell him to check the pitch side screen himself. He did neither which showed he had no understanding of the rules. I haven't seen one pundit, including an ex ref who didn't think it was a penalty. And let's be honest, the union of refs and former refs normally stand by each other even in the face of overwhelming incriminating evidence!!

 

[kevo]

Who were the VAR officials?

 

[Medwayseagull]

Who were the VAR officials?

Dumb and Dumber.

 

[Super Steve Earle]

Why?

Because #teamslikebrighton get nothing at Old Trafford. Never have and never will.

The officiating continues to be poor. Usually I can put it down to incompetence. Just now and then I wonder if the officials are bent. The McThug tackle and penalty incidents on Sunday very much had me thinking that there is maybe more to this than sheer incompetence.

Said it before and I'll say it again. We played in Manchester with a ref born in Manchester.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

For the record, my comments are about the general problem of VAR, and was not intended to suggest I don't think refs ever make mistakes (that could/should be corrected by VAR), or that the non-penalty sepcifically wasn't a mistake. As I've said elsewhere, even taking on board the reported instructions to raise the bar for how much contact is need for a challenge to be ruled a foul, the ref had established a threashold with challenges earlier in the match that this challenge more than met and it should have been given.

With regard to the offsides, watching on TV live and with replay I thought Welbeck was clearly off side. Even looking at the tweet I think that line is misleading. It is a line painted on a 2D picture, it does not have anything like the accuracy of the computer generated lines used by VAR, which takes info from multiple cameras to account for dimensions, depth of field etc. If I zoom in on the picture and ignore the line, it still looks offside to me.

I think the reason the Welbeck offside was flagged straight away is because it was so close to the halfway line. https://www.premierleague.com/news/1833470 "When an immediate goalscoring opportunity is likely to occur, the assistant referee will keep their flag down if they think there is an offside until the passage of play is completed." We see fouls in the middle of the pitch only get a yellow, because there's so far to go for there to be a goal scoring opportunity as opposed to the same foul outside the box seeing a red card for denying a goal scoring opportunity. This is in line with that approach. Welbeck's offside was close to the halfway line with two defenders near by, so no 'immediate goalscoring opportunity'. As far as I remember it, the united claim was closer to goal, and thus closer to a goal scoring opportunity, though I might be wrong about that and it could still be refereeing inconsistency. But that is why they didn't play on for Welbeck.

https://twitter.com/SEAGULLz69/status/1556918278295003137

I'm not disputing some of what you say but immediate goalscoring opportunity was exactly what happened from Welbeck's first touch he was in on goal. The assistant should not have put his flag up under the guidance. Issue here is we will never know if it was as the decision was made. It will never be discussed with the officials as other very poor mistakes were made for them to be questioned.

 

[Quinney]

https://twitter.com/SEAGULLz69/status/1556918278295003137

I'm not disputing some of what you say but immediate goalscoring opportunity was exactly what happened from Welbeck's first touch he was in on goal. The assistant should not have put his flag up under the guidance. Issue here is we will never know if it was as the decision was made. It will never be discussed with the officials as other very poor mistakes were made for them to be questioned.

Totally agree. Looking at the lino he couldn’t wait to put his flag up. It was tight, so why flag when you don’t have to. As you say it won’t get mentioned, the disgraceful penalty decision won’t be discussed again and the same thing will keep on happening. VAR was supposed to sort this bias out, it’s just made it even more frustrating.


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[Acker79]

https://twitter.com/SEAGULLz69/status/1556918278295003137

I'm not disputing some of what you say but immediate goalscoring opportunity was exactly what happened from Welbeck's first touch he was in on goal. The assistant should not have put his flag up under the guidance. Issue here is we will never know if it was as the decision was made. It will never be discussed with the officials as other very poor mistakes were made for them to be questioned.

The picture of the offside shows him in the centre circle when the linesman is judging it and deciding he is offside. That four second clip looks to me like the ball bounces at his feet so he needs another touch to control it which he takes while running across the pitch (how many times have we seen red cards not given because the attacker was 'running away from goal' when it was only slightly away from goal), while a defender is stood right by him and while welbeck knocks the ball past the defender, the defender has stopped trying because the whistle has gone. So combining it with the offside being in the centre circle and the running away from goal with a defender present, I can still understand the linesman flagging. I can also understand some fans such as yourself not being happy about the inconsistency.

But ultimately, he was offside. Even if they waited and played on, and Welbeck managed to get a shot on target that beat the keeper, it would have been disallowed for offside, so it is all rather moot, and probably why I am not angry with the refs about it.

 

[Greg Bobkin]

Are you saying that it needs binning off because it doesn't yield perfection?
If so, you have overambitious expectations.
Would you want to bin a referee because they don't deliver perfection?

No, not at all. I'm saying bin it because it fails at one of it's main reasons for existing – to clear up confusion/debate about some decisions made by referees. Also, it leads to more chat about VAR decisions, rather than the actual football itself.

Of course perfection is impossible and humans make mistakes, but when examples such as the obvious foul in the box the other day are not looked at and overturned, what's the point? It was a BLATANT penalty. When I think of some that have been awarded against Brighton, it's laughable, that something like that example should just be dismissed in seconds. Dunk doing that to Rashford and it's a penalty EVERY SINGLE TIME.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

The picture of the offside shows him in the centre circle when the linesman is judging it and deciding he is offside. That four second clip looks to me like the ball bounces at his feet so he needs another touch to control it which he takes while running across the pitch (how many times have we seen red cards not given because the attacker was 'running away from goal' when it was only slightly away from goal), while a defender is stood right by him and while welbeck knocks the ball past the defender, the defender has stopped trying because the whistle has gone. So combining it with the offside being in the centre circle and the running away from goal with a defender present, I can still understand the linesman flagging. I can also understand some fans such as yourself not being happy about the inconsistency.

But ultimately, he was offside. Even if they waited and played on, and Welbeck managed to get a shot on target that beat the keeper, it would have been disallowed for offside, so it is all rather moot, and probably why I am not angry with the refs about it.

The defender, Maguire, stopped after Welbeck had knocked it past him. No way was he getting back to Welbeck. Opinions I know but that was leading beyond doubt to a chance, the offside was debatable. I would suggest many more times than not the assistant would have NOT put their flag up to start with.

As the ball was hit long from the goalkeeper there is no way he can be looking at the ball being hit and sure of the positioning of Welbeck at the same time. Therefore he made a mistake in hastily raising the flag. Nothing to do with laws of the game and indeed contrary to what has happened since the beginning of last season.

It's not about being angry, it's the fact the officials, all of them, failed to do their respective jobs to the level expected. Nothing however will be done. The one thing I will say is the non-penalty has been discussed worldwide on footie shows and in the papers.