Question Time

[Nibble]

If you had followed my point, it was the absurdity of making him some kind of role model.

You say 'he turned his life round', so he stopped being a burglar !!!!

You can swoon all you want, but I wont.

You actually said, Burglaring (hmm) someone's house is a mistake too far. What did yo mean by this exactly then? He hasn't become a role model because he was a burglar or because he gave up burglary, he became a role model because of his subsequent acheivements. No-one is swooning, especially not me, I am not a fan of his work. However, I cannot deny he is a force for good and a deserved role model. And yes, he did turn his life around, you cannot really argue against that surely?

 

[BigGully]

He hasn't become a role model because he was a burglar, he became a role model because of his subsequent acheivements. No-one is swooning, especially not me, I am not a fan of his work. However, I cannot deny he is a force for good and a deserved role model. And yes, he did turn his life around, you cannot really argue against that surely?

He just stopped burgling peoples houses, which means he doesn't now do it.

So yes in that sense he has turned his life around, but in the context of force for good its a pretty low mark.

 

[beorhthelm]

As long as "the benefits of competitive tendering / market forces" remains a mantra of the politicians, things will get worse - and more and more low-paid jobs will remain unattractive to the people the politicians want to get back into work.

theres nothing wrong with market forces, just that politicians (and others) dont understand the true nature of market forces. they overlook that the market is perfect capable of placing criteria other than price. if we demand our politicians give greater weight to quality and aesthetics, like we do when we buy our jeans, mobile phones and cars, maybe they'll take it onboard. but apparently we insist on government not spending too much, though i dont know who tells who this is important. theres a school of thought that we dont like them spending too much money because we'd do better ourselves, because we will decide the values we want for ourselves, even if that means paying more. but then others say this means some cant afford what they want and other have. seems a bit complicated really, has anyone thought about this and come up with a solution?

 

[Seagull58]

What does where I am "happy" to live got to do with anything? Anyway, do people in Easterhouse have a roof over their head?, are they literally starving? Do they have hot/cold running water? Do they have access to healthcare/doctors? If the answer is no to all of those then yes, they are in poverty. Or are they, really, just very poor? Of course it's a crap lifestyle but I bet many in shanty towns of south america/India/etc. would gladly swap for it.

Anyway, there will always be pockets of really poor parts of the country in sink estates etc. Go to india, there are WHOLE shanty towns of people starving, begging for food, rarely able to wash themselves apart from in polluted waters, no chance of healthcare etc.

If poverty is to be "relative" then it's IMPOSSIBLE to get rid of it by definition of the word "relative". It doesn't matter how rich we ALL get, there will always be those that fall into the poorest X% (whatever that is), doesn't mean they are in "poverty".

The problem is with this trivialisation of the term "poverty" (by politicians, media etc.). It should always be absolute and something we should certainly try to eradicate in this country. What is *really* meant by "poverty" when spoken about by politicians etc. is actually just those that are very poor.

Nail. Head. Hit. You are absolutely right. This measure of relative poverty that they use in the UK is just ridiculous. There are people living in the UK in tough circumstances but the vast majority are supported by the welfare state one way or another. Then there are the NGOs providing shelter and food for the homeless, who could possibly be described as living in poverty but many of whom also receive benefits. Here in Joburg there are many people, including some that I know well, who are earning less than 600 quid a month, bringing up 2 or 3 kids and paying 450 quid in rent for a 2 bedroomed flat. How on earth do they manage that? What they do is sublet one of the bedrooms to another family, sublet the living room to two singles (partitioned by ceiling high row of cardboard boxes) and get 350 quid in rent. Then the entire family lives in the main bedroom and shares the kitchen and bathroom with the subtenants. That's pretty normal here and they would definitely not consider that they were living in poverty. Even in that situation they are much better off than the millions who are living on less than 7 quid a day (much less). We have people begging all day long at many of the traffic lights. That's poverty.

 

[Hamilton]

Nail. Head. Hit. You are absolutely right. This measure of relative poverty that they use in the UK is just ridiculous. There are people living in the UK in tough circumstances but the vast majority are supported by the welfare state one way or another. Then there are the NGOs providing shelter and food for the homeless, who could possibly be described as living in poverty but many of whom also receive benefits. Here in Joburg there are many people, including some that I know well, who are earning less than 600 quid a month, bringing up 2 or 3 kids and paying 450 quid in rent for a 2 bedroomed flat. How on earth do they manage that? What they do is sublet one of the bedrooms to another family, sublet the living room to two singles (partitioned by ceiling high row of cardboard boxes) and get 350 quid in rent. Then the entire family lives in the main bedroom and shares the kitchen and bathroom with the subtenants. That's pretty normal here and they would definitely not consider that they were living in poverty. Even in that situation they are much better off than the millions who are living on less than 7 quid a day (much less). We have people begging all day long at many of the traffic lights. That's poverty.

An interesting post, but certainly not nail - hit - head. The account you give of what is happening in South Africa I'm sure most on here would find eye-opening. However, that alone in no way means we can turn our eyes away from the poor of the UK any more than we should turn our eyes away from the harsh conditions that many other people live in throughout the world.

 

[sten_super]

Oh okay! In which case we broadly agree with each other. I think that whatever measure is used to calculate the purchasing power of $1.25 in a given country will broadly align with the median income - i.e. a country with a higher median income will have a higher cost of living.

The question then is where do you set the poverty line? What do you need to be able to buy to be considered not in poverty? I expect most people would think you have to be able to afford food, heating and so on, but what about transport so you can leave your immediate neighbourhood, books for your kids etc.? That's where it gets controversial, and drawing the line at 60% of median income has become an established rule of thumb to judge it.

The problem with tying poverty to the median wage is that you can then easily design policy to game the 'system' (by which I mean address the statistic rather than the problem). What's the easiest way of reducing the number of people with income less than 60% of the median? Reduce the median income - so cut benefits, reduce the minimum wage and increase direct taxation - and in all likelihood you will reduce relative poverty. Great stuff.

 

[The Spanish]

Considering he left school at 13 unable to read or write and encourages children to read and write I think he is doing alright actually.

he still cant f***ing spell.

 

[BLOCK F]

Yeah , a convicted burglar who writes seriously shit poetry who's got such a chip on his shoulder about this country he turned down the OBE that a patronising white establishment offered him, seriously , why do we "need" to hear from him more ? , he is a second generation immigrant who hates the way this country is and is so proud of his caribbean roots , yet still lives here , the reason people like you "need to hear from him more" is to make yourself feel good about how cool and down with multiculturalism you are, I bet he cannot believe his f***ing luck how people like you fawn over him and how the absolute dogshit he passes off as poetry is taken seriously .

That really made me chuckle and I have to agree with you!

 

[Seagull58]

An interesting post, but certainly not nail - hit - head. The account you give of what is happening in South Africa I'm sure most on here would find eye-opening. However, that alone in no way means we can turn our eyes away from the poor of the UK any more than we should turn our eyes away from the harsh conditions that many other people live in throughout the world.

Poor does not equal poverty.

 

[Billy the Fish]

An interesting post, but certainly not nail - hit - head. The account you give of what is happening in South Africa I'm sure most on here would find eye-opening. However, that alone in no way means we can turn our eyes away from the poor of the UK any more than we should turn our eyes away from the harsh conditions that many other people live in throughout the world.

I don't think anyone is saying we shouldn't help the poor, I'd say that we all think it's a good thing that a safety net exists which ensures that people exist to a certain standard in this country.

The dabate is about where that safety net should be. I think what most of us are saying is if you have a roof over your head, access to heating and running water and are able to feed yourself then you shouldn't be considered to be living in poverty regardless of whether and EU standard says you are. If you want more than the basics then you have to contribute to the rest of society somehow. It's up to society to help EVERYONE do this and that's what governments should be using resources of rather than arguing about what % of the population exist on a % income of another % of the population. That is just stupid.

I also think that how people live in other countries such as SA and India is very relevant. We live in a global society now and the world is only going to get smaller for the forseeable future. Poor people in other parts of the world seem to be much more adept at bettering themselves, and feeding and clothing themselves on small amounts of money, westerners have had it easy for such a long time that we've become soft.

 

[Hamilton]

Poor does not equal poverty.

Poverty is the state of being extremely poor, so yes, poor alone is not poverty. There are extremely poor people in the UK.

 

[Don Quixote]

In my opinion he is a great poet.

What is with the slating of his work on here? What is so bad about them?

 

[Hamilton]

I don't think anyone is saying we shouldn't help the poor, I'd say that we all think it's a good thing that a safety net exists which ensures that people exist to a certain standard in this country.

The dabate is about where that safety net should be. I think what most of us are saying is if you have a roof over your head, access to heating and running water and are able to feed yourself then you shouldn't be considered to be living in poverty regardless of whether and EU standard says you are. If you want more than the basics then you have to contribute to the rest of society somehow. It's up to society to help EVERYONE do this and that's what governments should be using resources of rather than arguing about what % of the population exist on a % income of another % of the population. That is just stupid.

I also think that how people live in other countries such as SA and India is very relevant. We live in a global society now and the world is only going to get smaller for the forseeable future. Poor people in other parts of the world seem to be much more adept at bettering themselves, and feeding and clothing themselves on small amounts of money, westerners have had it easy for such a long time that we've become soft.

I think that is what you are saying. I don't think you are speaking for everybody.

It is hard to define what the basics are. Should children in this country be entitled to sports equipment so that they can participate in sport at school? For example, is it fair to say that all 11 year olds should have a pair of trainers so they can take part in running? Is this a basic in the same way as hot and cold running water is? If we start to begin to define basics according to a sense of of what we see as fair parity in the UK then we're going to see a very long list. A lot longer than just roof, water and bowl of food.

 

[Billy the Fish]

I think that is what you are saying. I don't think you are speaking for everybody.

It is hard to define what the basics are. Should children in this country be entitled to sports equipment so that they can participate in sport at school? For example, is it fair to say that all 11 year olds should have a pair of trainers so they can take part in running? Is this a basic in the same way as hot and cold running water is? If we start to begin to define basics according to a sense of of what we see as fair parity in the UK then we're going to see a very long list. A lot longer than just roof, water and bowl of food.

Roof, water and bowl of food is all anyone should be entitled to IMHO. Everything else is a luxury, to say it isn't is an insult to billions of other people living on this little rock which floats around the sun.

 

[Nibble]

He just stopped burgling peoples houses, which means he doesn't now do it.

So yes in that sense he has turned his life around, but in the context of force for good its a pretty low mark.

You're getting way too confounded by the burglary aspect, I didn't mean him giving up crime was the force for good, although it is a good thing. I meant the work he does now. I am truly flabbergasted sometimes at the inability of some on here to read and follow a basic argument, christ alive.

 

[JCL666]

Roof, water and bowl of food is all anyone should be entitled to IMHO. Everything else is a luxury, to say it isn't is an insult to billions of other people living on this little rock which floats around the sun.

Absolute nonsense

 

[Nibble]

Yeah , a convicted burglar who writes seriously shit poetry who's got such a chip on his shoulder about this country he turned down the OBE that a patronising white establishment offered him, seriously , why do we "need" to hear from him more ? , he is a second generation immigrant who hates the way this country is and is so proud of his caribbean roots , yet still lives here , the reason people like you "need to hear from him more" is to make yourself feel good about how cool and down with multiculturalism you are, I bet he cannot believe his f***ing luck how people like you fawn over him and how the absolute dogshit he passes off as poetry is taken seriously .

He turned down the OBE because it is a symbol of a past Empire that murdered his forefathers not because he hates the Britain of today. There are plenty of people who critisise the legal system, poverty, the powers that be but you don't have a problem with the ones who are white and what you consider to be English do you? No. He is born and bred in England and has as much right as anyone to want better for his country and to critisise it. You critisise it all the time Bushy, all the time. If you don't like it why don't you leave it?

And he "still lives here" because he was born and bred here you dolt.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Roof, water and bowl of food is all anyone should be entitled to IMHO. Everything else is a luxury, to say it isn't is an insult to billions of other people living on this little rock which floats around the sun.

You really are an idiot. The past few thousand years have obviosly passed you by.

 

[Hamilton]

Roof, water and bowl of food is all anyone should be entitled to IMHO. Everything else is a luxury, to say it isn't is an insult to billions of other people living on this little rock which floats around the sun.

Stunned at the lunacy of what you have just posted.

 

[Nibble]

Roof, water and bowl of food is all anyone should be entitled to IMHO. Everything else is a luxury, to say it isn't is an insult to billions of other people living on this little rock which floats around the sun.

I think you need to go back to primary school and start over again, you have clearly missed some valuable lessons.