[News] Post Office Scandal -

[Talby]

Very true and the problems could get worse with more call centre staff working from home and the loss of informal office gossip, chats by the water fountain (very 1980s) etc where such issues get shared. From the drama it appears that the Sub Postmasters had a direct line to Fujitsu IT support, although not sure if they called a PO Help Desk first. No one has said if it was a particular product, region, transaction, etc that caused the problems. Doesn’t seem to be many POs in the south that were affected although again that could be some artistic license in the drama.

This is a good resource for understanding some of the scale of the issue. Includes links to human impact statements too : http://tvcs.co.uk/smc/podailymap.php

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

Where was the money they supposedly stole though? None was traced yet all subpostmasters involved had to pay back money ‘owed’. The PO profited from this. They effectively stole from those they accused of theft. If it’s obvious and they clearly find funds transferred to someone’s personal account etc etc then fine, but to rely on a system (error) but then not trace the funds is shameful. They were so certain that these people were guilty but the auditors and investigators clearly did not do a fair review of each case. They got bonuses for the money received back from these dodgy prosecutions. Was the auditor more culpable?? Don’t know, by definition you’d have thought the investigators should be a bit more meticulous, but sounds like they were a bit ‘you’re guilty’ from the get go. Many of the victims speak negatively of the investigation & security team , ….but 700+ people, when does the penny drop?

Auditors only reported they immediately handed over any case that failed the audit. It was not in their remit to investigate.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

If it’s not related to Horizon errors then fair point but it’s the errors and untraceable (invisible) funds that are the focus.

This is the problem though. The pressure is to dismiss all the cases since the introduction of Horizon. Before Horizon approx. 30 cases went to court a year, this rose to 80 post introduction. Though there has been a huge cover up and innocent people have lost everything including their lives, there will still be a reasonable number who did take money. These people will now not only be "free" they will get compensation. How they sort this mess out God knows.

 

[Talby]

Auditors only reported they immediately handed over any case that failed the audit. It was not in their remit to investigate.

Get that completely. Clear lines.

 

[Talby]

This is the problem though. The pressure is to dismiss all the cases since the introduction of Horizon. Before Horizon approx. 30 cases went to court a year, this rose to 80 post introduction. Though there has been a huge cover up and innocent people have lost everything including their lives, there will still be a reasonable number who did take money. These people will now not only be "free" they will get compensation. How they sort this mess out God knows.

Well, give the PPE scandal etc it’s a mere drop in the ocean. Don’t disagree with you but, as you say, a total mess.

 

[pasty]

BBC breaking news

Paula Vennells is handing back her CBE

 

[Lyndhurst 14]

 

[Brian Fantana]

Whilst it is definitely the correct decision to give the CBE back, I can't help but wonder whether a lot of the crucial decisions in this were made by lower levels of senior management, who are faceless in all of this.

 

[Lyndhurst 14]

I imagine she thinks giving back the gong, which a lot of people see as a meaningless award anyway, will draw a line under her involvement and any further legal action - and she's probably right

 

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

The people working on that helpdesk MUST have clocked that there were more and more of the same things being raised. Given that everyone being investigated was seemingly told that they were the only one, there must have been a specific and proactive decision taken by someone to advise helpdesk staff to not tell the truth.

Yes, and who made that decision to knowingly lie?

 

[Brian Fantana]

Yes, and who made that decision to knowingly lie?

I strongly suspect we'll never get to that, unless someone was daft enough to put that edict in writing.

 

[Talby]

I strongly suspect we'll never get to that, unless someone was daft enough to put that edict in writing.

There were prosecutions happening when bugs etc were acknowledged by the PO, just not disclosed to the court!

 

[Talby]

Whilst it is definitely the correct decision to give the CBE back, I can't help but wonder whether a lot of the crucial decisions in this were made by lower levels of senior management, who are faceless in all of this.

Agree. A culture of bonuses kept them focus on the wrong thing.

 

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

Striping Vennels of her CBE is now pretty much of a given -

As expected, she's given it back - before she's stripped of it.

 

[Greg Bobkin]

I imagine she thinks giving back the gong, which a lot of people see as a meaningless award anyway, will draw a line under her involvement and any further legal action - and she's probably right

Maybe that would be the case with a 'normal' scandal that wasn't thrust into the limelight via a major TV drama, but I think this one is on another level. I get the impression this is going to run and run, like the JFT96 campaign.

 

[beorhthelm]

I strongly suspect we'll never get to that, unless someone was daft enough to put that edict in writing.

likely wont have been one person, it would be various people. at first some believing the new system fit the spec, then some covering, then others following along as that was the process. some in RM/PO management, some at Fujitsu.

so set expectations, there wont be a single prosecution because there wont be evidence a single person was responsible.

other than compensation and exoneration of the affected sub postmasters, the most important change is removing Post Office's powers to prosecute, a lot would have been uncovered earlier by a third party imo.

 

[ROSM]

The current public inquiry is making great progress on identifying people at all levels who either didnt ask, ignored or disnt understand what they were told and then negligently or knowingly gave evidence or supported a robust defence approach.

There are in-house legal teams of post office and fujitsu as well as hired legal firms and execs who are all in the firing line.

As others have said, Nick Wallis is the go to person for the detail

 

[Lyndhurst 14]

Maybe that would be the case with a 'normal' scandal that wasn't thrust into the limelight via a major TV drama, but I think this one is on another level. I get the impression this is going to run and run, like the JFT96 campaign.

I really hope you are right - but with the recent enquiries into the Covid PPE scandal and the boozy parties at No 10 during lockdown yielding little more than a slap on the wrist I'm not holding my breath

 

[GJN1]

Whilst it is definitely the correct decision to give the CBE back, I can't help but wonder whether a lot of the crucial decisions in this were made by lower levels of senior management, who are faceless in all of this.

Adam Crozier's silence is deafening.

 

[Simster]

In a statement, Vennells said: “I have so far maintained my silence as I considered it inappropriate to comment publicly while the Inquiry remains ongoing and before I have provided my oral evidence.
“I am, however, aware of the calls from subpostmasters and others to return my CBE. I have listened and I confirm that I return my CBE with immediate effect.
“I am truly sorry for the devastation caused to the sub-postmasters and their families, whose lives were torn apart by being wrongly accused and wrongly prosecuted as a result of the Horizon system.”



This sums her up for me. She was made a CBE in 2019 - FIVE YEARS AGO. For her to suggest she has "listened" to those subpostmasters and others is galling beyond belief. Why did it take you five years to hand it back them, you obnoxious cow? It's almost as if she didn't listen at all and only did it before this clueless but populist government did it for her, on the back of a petition that had reached nearly 1.5m signatures.