[News] Post Office Scandal -

[Nobby]

It doesn't take long to google the fact that (as Thunder Bolt says) that it needs to be referred to the DPP first. They don't just wade in.

Farage is talking shit.

No - this can’t be true.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

A small minority of these people may genuinely be guilty of something. Our justice system is at stake if all of these people have their convictions over-turned en masse. None of them should fast track the legal system its there for everyone no exceptions. There are always injustices and these must all be looked at in full but no jump to conclusions. I fully support this government and hope Rishi is not bearing to pressure from the public to act en masse and quickly. What about every other case of appeal? No one has a right to claim their case is any more worthy of review than the next person. That is out justice system. We all play a part,mine is catching ppl believed to have committed but the courts decide and over-turn convictions not political parties or political pressure groups or social media campaigns etc., that is completely wrong.

Guilty of something? None of these people had excess funds in their personal bank accounts, or expensive cars, or motor homes, or exotic holidays. If money was going missing, then where did it go?
This is the problem with the PO prosecutions, that they produced printouts from Horizon showing shortfalls, but not where the ‘ghost’ money was going.
A whistleblower admitted there was a problem, and the machines could be accessed remotely by them to alter accounts. The lady, Jo, saw the amount ‘missing’ double before her eyes, and reported it as such. She was lied to, and told that was impossible.
The Post Office and Fujitsu told over 700 people they were guilty before they could prove their innocence.
That is not justice.

 

[Lyndhurst 14]

The government can get back that 60 million windfall they dished out to Michelle Mone for all that crappy PPE she gave them and divide it between the 700 who would actually deserve it - that would be about 85 grand each by my calculations. It's not enough but it would be a start.

 

[ROSM]

Ultimately there are some people who made money out of this and I doubt its sub postmasters en masse.

It will be the post office who had post masters pay back money they didn't take. It will be executives who got paid bonuses. It will be legal firms who overlooked issues to provide 'evidence statements' and rebuttals. It will be those who are advising the witnesses at the current inquiry.

Plus fujitsu who got paid (and indeed still are) for a shoddy product. And their past and current directors , one of which is married to a current cabinet minister and works for a company that has procured contracts in the education system.

Thats where this can start to be funded from!

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

Guilty of something? None of these people had excess funds in their personal bank accounts, or expensive cars, or motor homes, or exotic holidays. If money was going missing, then where did it go?
This is the problem with the PO prosecutions, that they produced printouts from Horizon showing shortfalls, but not where the ‘ghost’ money was going.
A whistleblower admitted there was a problem, and the machines could be accessed remotely by them to alter accounts. The lady, Jo, saw the amount ‘missing’ double before her eyes, and reported it as such. She was lied to, and told that was impossible.
The Post Office and Fujitsu told over 700 people they were guilty before they could prove their innocence.
That is not justice.

There’s been 800+ convictions since Horizon was introduced some of them would be justified. too much money and time would be wasted attempting to find which ones though.

 

[A1X]

so bored of hearing about this ok had to turn bbc radio 5 off becasue they couldnt stop yapping on about it today

Well I’m delighted we’ve finally found the true victim of this scandal, and apparently it’s you

 

[ROSM]

There’s been 800+ convictions since Horizon was introduced some of them would be justified. too much money and time would be wasted attempting to find which ones though.

Just to be clear, to be justified they will need to be beyond reasonable doubt. You will never get that now the system is known to be so fatally flawed.

 

[Talby]

Thoughts and prayers at this difficult time for you.

Indeed. A few days of news vs. 20 years of struggle. Poor lamb.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

Just to be clear, to be justified they will need to be beyond reasonable doubt. You will never get that now the system is known to be so fatally flawed.

My friend who was an auditor said they caught some red-handed and proved beyond doubt. But as he said they were easy as his team would have monitored them as a business for a while.

 

[ROSM]

My friend who was an auditor said they caught some red-handed and proved beyond doubt. But as he said they were easy as his team would have monitored them as a business for a while.

So if their conviction relied on any witness statement from fujitsu or the post office re the veracity of the computer system then their conviction will be unsafe. That is the law.

The current public inquiry has had both fujitsu and the post office obfuscating with equivocal statements, lost evidence, late discovery of emails/evidence. The chair has been getting visibly and audibly furious about it.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

So if their conviction relied on any witness statement from fujitsu or the post office re the veracity of the computer system then their conviction will be unsafe. That is the law.

The current public inquiry has had both fujitsu and the post office obfuscating with equivocal statements, lost evidence, late discovery of emails/evidence. The chair has been getting visibly and audibly furious about it.

No they proved where the money had gone.

 

[ROSM]

No they proved where the money had gone.

I appreciate that, however (and i speak from some experience as having been involved in prosecutions for a financial company) if a statement provided which is material to the case and later proves to be false then the conviction will likely be seen as unsafe. A retrial can be sought but the question is whether anybody would want to do that.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

I appreciate that, however (and i speak from some experience as having been involved in prosecutions for a financial company) if a statement provided which is material to the case and later proves to be false then the conviction will likely be seen as unsafe. A retrial can be sought but the question is whether anybody would want to do that.

I appreciate that but the example given to me the money was traced to another account. A shop with little stock suddenly had full shelves for Christmas.

 

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

As of a couple of hours ago the petition stood at > 900k signatures. Apparently Alan Bates has declined an OBE until Vennels is stripped of her CBE, so keep piling in.

I've followed this outrageous miscarriage of justice fairly closely for many, many years. Private Eye have been all over this for years. There was an excellent Podcast a year or so too - can't instantly recall who made it.

Shame that it's taken a TV programme to bring any meaningful action with regards to getting full justice and punishing those responsible.

The Post Office, along with Fujitsu and The Government is responsible for possibly the most widespread miscarriage of justice in British legal history.

Striping Vennels of her CBE is now pretty much of a given - hopefully any pay-off she may have received will be repaid plus her PO pension terminated.

However she, and several others (including Van den Bogerd) within the PO and Fujitsu must also now be persued and criminal charges bought against them.

The Met are already looking into potential offenses of perjury and perverting the course of justice related to the prosecutions and as well as potential fraud offenses.

Fujitsu should IMO be made to pay the compenation due to the subpostmasters - and stripped of any future Govt. contracts (they've been awarded more than 150 contracts SINCE the Horizon scandal broke...)

People killed themselves because of these people - others lost everything - pay the compensation immediately and go after those responsible.

 

[Springal]

Fujitsu should IMO be made to pay the compenation due to the subpostmasters - and stripped of any future Govt. contracts (they've been awarded more than 150 contracts SINCE the Horizon scandal broke...)

People killed themselves because of these people - others lost everything - pay the compensation immediately and go after those responsible.

I doubt it’ll happen - Fujitsu acquired UK IT services company ICL which was heavily tied in to the UK Govt and there has always been a super close relationship regardless of performance and other failings. It’s still very much seen as a ‘UK’ success story and given so many alternatives are EU or APJC based orgs it’d be seen as a bit of an own goal. Unless it goes to Rishi Sunaks wife’s family company Infosys of course

 

[Brian Fantana]

The thing I can't get my head around is that presumably there would have been a helpdesk or similar that Postmasters and Postmistresses would have been getting in contact with to raise the issues that they were experiencing. The people working on that helpdesk MUST have clocked that there were more and more of the same things being raised. Given that everyone being investigated was seemingly told that they were the only one, there must have been a specific and proactive decision taken by someone to advise helpdesk staff to not tell the truth. I also fail to believe that the people working on the helpdesks wouldn't have flagged that there were things happening that clearly didn't make sense. People must have been 100% questioning the accuracy of the system, but they must have been silenced internally.

 

[Talby]

This I agree with. My friend who I posted about earlier in this thread, as an auditor his role was to train and audit. If they found something they reported it. As he said to me, and gave examples where often it was obvious that looking at some businesses, on finding discrepancies it was obvious where the money was going. As he rightly says there are these people that are not only going to get off they may now get compensation for nicking the cash. That is another kick in the guts of those wrongly accused. He was fed the same bullshit as the postmasters.

Where was the money they supposedly stole though? None was traced yet all subpostmasters involved had to pay back money ‘owed’. The PO profited from this. They effectively stole from those they accused of theft. If it’s obvious and they clearly find funds transferred to someone’s personal account etc etc then fine, but to rely on a system (error) but then not trace the funds is shameful. They were so certain that these people were guilty but the auditors and investigators clearly did not do a fair review of each case. They got bonuses for the money received back from these dodgy prosecutions. Was the auditor more culpable?? Don’t know, by definition you’d have thought the investigators should be a bit more meticulous, but sounds like they were a bit ‘you’re guilty’ from the get go. Many of the victims speak negatively of the investigation & security team , ….but 700+ people, when does the penny drop?

 

[timbha]

The thing I can't get my head around is that presumably there would have been a helpdesk or similar that Postmasters and Postmistresses would have been getting in contact with to raise the issues that they were experiencing. The people working on that helpdesk MUST have clocked that there were more and more of the same things being raised. Given that everyone being investigated was seemingly told that they were the only one, there must have been a specific and proactive decision taken by someone in PO management to advise helpdesk staff to not tell the truth. I also fail to believe that the people working on the helpdesks wouldn't have flagged that there were things happening that clearly didn't make sense. People must have been 100% questioning the accuracy of the system, but they must have been silenced internally.

Very true and the problems could get worse with more call centre staff working from home and the loss of informal office gossip, chats by the water fountain (very 1980s) etc where such issues get shared. From the drama it appears that the Sub Postmasters had a direct line to Fujitsu IT support, although not sure if they called a PO Help Desk first. No one has said if it was a particular product, region, transaction, etc that caused the problems. Doesn’t seem to be many POs in the south that were affected although again that could be some artistic license in the drama.

 

[Talby]

No they proved where the money had gone.

If it’s not related to Horizon errors then fair point but it’s the errors and untraceable (invisible) funds that are the focus.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

Where was the money they supposedly stole though? None was traced yet all subpostmasters involved had to pay back money ‘owed’. The PO profited from this. They effectively stole from those they accused of theft. If it’s obvious and they clearly find funds transferred to someone’s personal account etc etc then fine, but to rely on a system (error) but then not trace the funds is shameful. They were so certain that these people were guilty but the auditors and investigators clearly did not do a fair review of each case. They got bonuses for the money received back from these dodgy prosecutions. Was the auditor more culpable?? Don’t know, by definition you’d have thought the investigators should be a bit more meticulous, but sounds like they were a bit ‘you’re guilty’ from the get go. Many of the victims speak negatively of the investigation & security team , ….but 700+ people, when does the penny drop?

I haven't at any point questioned these people and have been at pains to say most were completely innocent however some were not. If you re-read my posts I point out that my friend, as an auditor, stated those that HAD taken money often it was obvious and relatively straightforward to find where it has gone. That is my point it basically shows how corrupt the top of the PO were.