Peace Ship Attacked

[Uncle Spielberg]

All very tragic but just as tragic is how these threads always turn into borefests with people trying to out do each other and show off with their superior grasp of history and the middle eastern conflict. Pompous and pretentious.

 

[Insel affe]

Sorry Steve, that "report" is bollocks on so many levels it qualifies as a children's fictional account. Where do we start?

Below is an article by Israeli journalist Ron Ben Yishai for the Israeli newspaper Yediot Achronot in which he provides a first hand account of the Israeli operation to take control of the Turkish-led flotilla. The Israel Project hopes you find this of interest.

Written by a journalist who claims first hand experience, yet seems to have been almost the only person not to have been attacked by the crew members?

Ben Yishai, Ron, "A Brutal Ambush at Sea," YnetNews, May 31, 2010, http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...896796,00.html
For Video Footage of the Gaza Flotilla
A Brutal Ambush at Sea
Ron Ben Yishai recounts bloody clash aboard Gaza-bound vessel: The lacking crowd-dispersal means, the brutal violence of ‘peace activists,’ and the attempt to bring down an IDF helicopter
Our Navy commandoes fell right into the hands of the Gaza mission members. A few minutes before the takeover attempt aboard the Marmara got underway, the operation commander was told that 20 people were waiting on the deck where a helicopter was to deploy the first team of the elite Flotilla 13 unit. The original plan was to disembark on the top deck, and from there rush to the vessel’s bridge and order the Marmara’s captain to stop.
Officials estimated that passengers will show slight resistance, and possibly minor violence; for that reason, the operation’s commander decided to bring the helicopter directly above the top deck. The first rope that soldiers used in order to descend down to the ship was wrested away by activists, most of them Turks, and tied to an antenna with the hopes of bringing the chopper down. However, Flotilla 13 fighters decided to carry on.

Tied to an antenna? Horseshit. So with a helicopter they were unable to exert pressure on the rope to stop it being tied on? In ANY boarding operation the rope never goes to the deck, it goes above the deck to prevent fouling.

Navy commandoes slid down to the vessel one by one, yet then the unexpected occurred: The passengers that awaited them on the deck pulled out bats, clubs, and slingshots with glass marbles, assaulting each soldier as he disembarked. The fighters were nabbed one by one and were beaten up badly, yet they attempted to fight back.
However, to their misfortune, they were only equipped with paintball rifles used to disperse minor protests, such as the ones held in Bilin. The paintballs obviously made no impression on the activists, who kept on beating the troops up and even attempted to wrest away their weapons.

The commandos went down one by one? They are an elite force yet they insert one at a time? Again, shite. They would have dropped in either two or four to provide cover. If they were inserting using a one-at-a-time method then they should have stayed at home practicing insertion technique on their ducks in the bath.

As for being equipped with paintball rifles - why? No force in their right mind issues their troops with more weaponry than they need for this sort of task. Why would you issue paintball rifles along with personal weapons and sidearms? More clutter. Perhaps the IDF would like to claim the blood was only the red paintballs exploding? And as for them being beaten up - the IDF use a method of self defence called Krav Maga - designed to be effective in this sort of situation and created by Imi Lichtenfield as a defence system to be used when at a disadvantage. They all need to go back and retake their training if not one soldier was able to use this effectively!

One soldier who came to the aid of a comrade was captured by the rioters and sustained severe blows. The commandoes were equipped with handguns but were told they should only use them in the face of life-threatening situations. When they came down from the chopper, they kept on shouting to each other “don’t shoot, don’t shoot,” even though they sustained numerous blows.

"Don't shoot"? At sea, above the noise of the helicopter and in the panic and confusion - they relied on people shouting at each other "don't shoot"? What happened to rules of engagement, the planning before the execution of the operation, radio communications?

‘I saw the tip of a rifle’
The Navy commandoes were prepared to mostly encounter political activists seeking to hold a protest, rather than trained street fighters. The soldiers were told they were to verbally convince activists who offer resistance to give up, and only then use paintballs.

Verbally convince? They are all multilingual now are they? Bollocks.

They were permitted to use their handguns only under extreme circumstances.
The planned rush towards the vessel’s bridge became impossible, even when a second chopper was brought in with another crew of soldiers. “Throw stun grenades,” shouted Flotilla 13’s commander who monitored the operation. The Navy chief was not too far, on board a speedboat belonging to Flotilla 13, along with forces who attempted to climb into the back of the ship.

More shouting - and suddenly they have stun grenades in addition to paintball rifles, personal weapons and sidearms?

The forces hurled stun grenades, yet the rioters on the top deck, whose number swelled up to 30 by that time, kept on beating up about 30 commandoes who kept gliding their way one by one from the helicopter.

30 Elite commandos against 30 rioters? Jesus H, what a shambles. What happened to tactical effectiveness - are they trying to claim that each commando was involved in single hand to hand combat (for which they are extensively trained) and could not subdue? Were they not equipped with zipties?

At one point, the attackers nabbed one commando, wrested away his handgun, and threw him down from the top deck to the lower deck, 30 feet below. The soldier sustained a serious head wound and lost his consciousness.
Only after this injury did Flotilla 13 troops ask for permission to use live fire. The commander approved it: You can go ahead and fire. The soldiers pulled out their handguns and started shooting at the rioters’ legs, a move that ultimately neutralized them. Meanwhile, the rioters started to fire back at the commandoes.
“I saw the tip of a rifle sticking out of the stairwell,” one commando said. “He fired at us and we fired back. We didn’t see if we hit him. We looked for him later but couldn’t find him.” Two soldiers sustained gunshot wounds to their knee and stomach after rioters apparently fired at them using guns wrested away from troops.

The Chain of Command needs dropping from 30 feet onto their bloody heads. No clear guidelines on the use of lethal force? Guns being taken from "elite" commandos? Shooting at legs - get a grip - not one single force in the entire world shoots to maim - they all shoot to kill. What about ricochets, the moving platform? They would have shot to kill unless they were shitting themselves and shooting without control - which judging by the way this went looks more likely. A bloody boy scout outing.


During the commotion, another commando was stabbed with a knife. In a later search aboard the Marmara, soldiers found caches of bats, clubs, knives, and slingshots used by the rioters ahead of the IDF takeover. It appeared the activists were well prepared for a fight.
Some passengers on the ship stood at the back and pounded the soldiers’ hands as they attempted to climb on board. Only after a 30-minute shootout and brutal assaults using clubs and knifes did commandoes manage to reach the bridge and take over the Marmara.

Why was the rear end of the ship not secured to allow the insertion of troops? Hitting their hands? Again, absolute horseshit. Why did they not simply engage the bridge of the ship - once they had started shooting, they should have stepped to the next logical point, the one which would have prevented the escalation of internal ship violence. Engage the bridge, stop the ship. Sounds more like they were keener to insert as many men as possible to exact some sort of revenge. Then again, this was in international waters, completely illegal and appears to have been a complete cock up - or something far more sinister being presented as a cock up. Look at the USS Liberty if you want to see what Israel is capable of.

It appears that the error in planning the operation was the estimate that passengers were indeed political activists and members of humanitarian groups who seek a political provocation, but would not resort to brutal violence. The soldiers thought they will encounter Bilin-style violence; instead, they got Bangkok. The forces that disembarked from the helicopters were few; just dozens of troops – not enough to contend with the large group awaiting them.

They got Bangkok? With the Israeli intelligence system, one of the most effective in the world, they expected to meet girl scouts? Bollocks. And as for the bit about a "larger group" - earlier in the article he says it was 30 against 30. Should have proof read that bit, huh?

The second error was that commanders did not address seriously enough the fact that a group of men were expecting the soldiers on the top deck. Had they addressed this more seriously, they may have hurled tear-gas grenades and smoke grenades from the helicopter to create a screen that would have enabled them to carry out their mission, without the fighters falling right into the hands of the rioters, who severely assaulted them.

Why not do this anyway? To clear the upper deck, where they had already "tried to tie a helicopter to an antenna" they should have used non-lethal area clearance. Overall, a load of state-sponsored news horseshit. They have f***ed up and been caught out and they try to turn it into a paintballing session that went wrong.

Nail head

 

[Greeno]

I think it will help if we see it for ourself.....

1) You'd have to be a bit of a fuckwit to ignore the orders of Israeli navy especially after the last few years:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6jDIQr59Sk

2) Peace Activists shootself) stabbing an Israeli soldier

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buzOWKxN2co&feature=player_embedded!



3) There was provocation/there wasn't provocation, there were weapons/there wasn't weapons, the soldiers were attacked/the soldiers weren't attacked

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bU12KW-XyZE&feature=player_embedded


4) What happens when you interrupt a group of pacifists in the midst of a rendition of Kumbyah

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo


Judge for yourself.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Just goes to show that Israelis are murdering bastards - combined with the MURDER of a Palestine leader really shows that they don't give a toss about life. The Israeli government are a terroist government and all deserve to die.

Here's hoping they and their supporters all die a very horrible and painful death.

 

[Greeno]

I'll pass your message on to Tony Bloom Westdene Seagull.

 

[Common as Mook]

I'll pass your message on to Tony Bloom Westdene Seagull.

And I'll pass some other opinions on this thread onto Adam El Abd.

 

[Stoo82]

Calling all Isrelies murders for this is like calling all Germans Nazis.

Murder murders?

Never a good idea, as we will all end up dead.

 

[HampshireSeagulls]

Sorry Greeno, the Israeli PR machine goes into overdrive on these occasions. They are very good at shortening video clips or removing bits they don't want you seeing. The commandos have been sent into a situation in international waters which they instigated - the first clip states that aid will be permitted based on current regulations - and those regulations forbid anything which helps the Palestinians produce items or make money. The reason they went in by boat was to avoid the ridiculous, illegal embargo that Israel has imposed on them. The subsequent clips do show the Israelis getting a bit of a kicking, but why on earth do they commit men one at a time, using a fast roping system, into an unsecured area? Did they expect open arms and flowers? The use of poles and plastic deck chairs against a team of commandos, attacking at night, with guns (paint or live rounds, I would always err on them having something which was going to kill me and not decorate me), they are going to retaliate and defend themselves, especially based on the historical actions of the IDF and their specialist teams. Israel cocked this one up badly, no matter how many clips we see of their crack troops getting walloped, ultimately they killed anything between 8 and 15 people in an operation which was illegal and criminally carried out.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

`

I'll pass your message on to Tony Bloom Westdene Seagull.

since when has Tony Bloom been a member of the Israeli goverment ? trying reading posts before replying !

 

[Buzzer]

....really shows that they don't give a toss about life.......

....Here's hoping they and their supporters all die a very horrible and painful death.

Interesting line of reasoning you have there.

 

[HampshireSeagulls]

Hm - not sure wishing slow and painful deaths on the people involved in this mess is a solid solution. Kind of prolongs the shambles and doesn't really solve anything as the people waiting to fill the vacuum would be just as bad. I would rather wish some mood altering happy drugs on all of them so that we could all just get on with watching the World Cup while they spend a couple of years loving each other and not bombing or killing innocents on all sides and claiming a lifetime of persecution.

However, the person that planned the last operation should be tied face down in the desert with his arse in the air and painted up with a camel-attracting pheremone so that he gets to understand the true meaning of "f***ed up the arse by a sand dweller".

 

[Steve Foster]

Just goes to show that Israelis are murdering bastards - combined with the MURDER of a Palestine leader really shows that they don't give a toss about life. The Israeli government are a terroist government and all deserve to die.

Here's hoping they and their supporters all die a very horrible and painful death.

Interesting that it has taken you all day for us to wait to hear your venom.
You really are a pathetic individual who cannot hold or discuss any debate, just to spout vile.

 

[Greeno]

HampshireSeagull, if you expect me to justify the precise military tactics used, whether the soldiers should have landed on the top deck, whether they should have landed at the other end of the ship, I am afraid you are asking the wrong person!!

The underlying issue is that Israel did not want to engage with anybody on that ship. For people who are supposedly on a humanitarian mission to Gaza delivering aid, I don't think anyone would have expected such a reaction like that. Feel free to defend yourself, but what are you defending yourself from? The other 5 ships heeded the call and were transported to Ashdod. Israel had every right to intercept that ship if it felt its sovereignty was going t be undermined. Judging by the fact that almost 10,000 rockets have been fired into Israel over the last 8 years one can hardly blame the Israeli governemt for not allowing an organisation who has close ties with Hamas to deliver goods directly into the hands of Hamas without them being checked first.

Whether or not you agree with the intricacies of the blockade i.e. what should go in and shouldn't is another matter and I think we will both agree with more than we disagree about such an issue. But with regards to these events, the point is that Israel has a duty to protect its citizens from more rockets and terror attacks...allowing goods to go unchecked straight into the hands of Hamas is unacceptable for Israel.

Furthermore, its also important to note that the aid which was on the ship is still going to be transferred in to Gaza. Its just a shame that the organisers had a different agenda to helping the Palestinians who are in serious need of the supplies.

 

[brighton bluenose]

I think we all know the reaction. They will get another battering!

God, there really are some brain-dead pr!cks on here!!!

 

[Juan Albion]

HampshireSeagull, if you expect me to justify the precise military tactics used, whether the soldiers should have landed on the top deck, whether they should have landed at the other end of the ship, I am afraid you are asking the wrong person!!

The underlying issue is that Israel did not want to engage with anybody on that ship. For people who are supposedly on a humanitarian mission to Gaza delivering aid, I don't think anyone would have expected such a reaction like that. Feel free to defend yourself, but what are you defending yourself from? The other 5 ships heeded the call and were transported to Ashdod. Israel had every right to intercept that ship if it felt its sovereignty was going t be undermined. Judging by the fact that almost 10,000 rockets have been fired into Israel over the last 8 years one can hardly blame the Israeli governemt for not allowing an organisation who has close ties with Hamas to deliver goods directly into the hands of Hamas without them being checked first.

Whether or not you agree with the intricacies of the blockade i.e. what should go in and shouldn't is another matter and I think we will both agree with more than we disagree about such an issue. But with regards to these events, the point is that Israel has a duty to protect its citizens from more rockets and terror attacks...allowing goods to go unchecked straight into the hands of Hamas is unacceptable for Israel.

Furthermore, its also important to note that the aid which was on the ship is still going to be transferred in to Gaza. Its just a shame that the organisers had a different agenda to helping the Palestinians who are in serious need of the supplies.

A fairly sensible post. A rarity on NSC.

 

[brighton bluenose]

HampshireSeagull, if you expect me to justify the precise military tactics used, whether the soldiers should have landed on the top deck, whether they should have landed at the other end of the ship, I am afraid you are asking the wrong person!!

The underlying issue is that Israel did not want to engage with anybody on that ship. For people who are supposedly on a humanitarian mission to Gaza delivering aid, I don't think anyone would have expected such a reaction like that. Feel free to defend yourself, but what are you defending yourself from? The other 5 ships heeded the call and were transported to Ashdod. Israel had every right to intercept that ship if it felt its sovereignty was going t be undermined. Judging by the fact that almost 10,000 rockets have been fired into Israel over the last 8 years one can hardly blame the Israeli governemt for not allowing an organisation who has close ties with Hamas to deliver goods directly into the hands of Hamas without them being checked first.

Whether or not you agree with the intricacies of the blockade i.e. what should go in and shouldn't is another matter and I think we will both agree with more than we disagree about such an issue. But with regards to these events, the point is that Israel has a duty to protect its citizens from more rockets and terror attacks...allowing goods to go unchecked straight into the hands of Hamas is unacceptable for Israel.

Furthermore, its also important to note that the aid which was on the ship is still going to be transferred in to Gaza. Its just a shame that the organisers had a different agenda to helping the Palestinians who are in serious need of the supplies.

Sorry?! Please clarify how the fiuck Israeli sovereignty was going to be undermined?!

In case you hadn't noticed Gaza has been turned into a virtual prison camp by the IDF where peoples movements are restricted in and out in defiance of 'international law' - or does that not count when its 'Arabs' who are being subjugated??!!

We hear constantly how Israel is the only democratic nation in the middle-east but when the people of Gaza vote for Hamas democratically all of a sudden that democracy is irrelevant!!

 

[brighton bluenose]

All very tragic but just as tragic is how these threads always turn into borefests with people trying to out do each other and show off with their superior grasp of history and the middle eastern conflict. Pompous and pretentious.

Actually your superior attitude about something that people obviously care about is in fact both 'pompous and pretentious'!!

 

[Greeno]

Sorry?! Please clarify how the fiuck Israeli sovereignty was going to be undermined?!

In case you hadn't noticed Gaza has been turned into a virtual prison camp by the IDF where peoples movements are restricted in and out in defiance of 'international law' - or does that not count when its 'Arabs' who are being subjugated??!!

We hear constantly how Israel is the only democratic nation in the middle-east but when the people of Gaza vote for Hamas democratically all of a sudden that democracy is irrelevant!!

By giving Hamas goods which could (Israel doesn't know they couldn't) be used to build rockets + rockets fired into Israel with the intention to kill as many civillians as possible indiscriminately = undermining sovereignty.


In case you haven't noticed, Gaza has two borders. One with Israel, one with Egypt. Egypt also has restrictions. Your argument about arabs being subjugated because they are arab is flawed.

In case you haven't noticed, Hamas aren't the conservative party. They make the BNP look like Saints. They are a homophobic, mysogynistic antisemitic gang sworn on the destruction of the state of israel and have been behind a number of suicide bomb attacks in Israel as well as 10,000 rockets into Israel. They seized control of Gaza by literally throwing the opposition off of buildings and are holding a soldier, Gilad Shalit, kidnapped without any access to the Red Cross or the UN. Is that your idea of democracy? Also, lets not forget, Israel is not the only country which refuses to have anything to do with Hamas.

 

[Greeno]

By giving Hamas goods which could (Israel doesn't know they couldn't) be used to build rockets + rockets fired into Israel with the intention to kill as many civillians as possible indiscriminately = undermining sovereignty.


In case you haven't noticed, Gaza has two borders. One with Israel, one with Egypt. Egypt also has restrictions. Your argument about arabs being subjugated because they are arab is flawed.

In case you haven't noticed, Hamas aren't the conservative party. They make the BNP look like Saints. They are a homophobic, mysogynistic antisemitic gang sworn on the destruction of the state of israel and have been behind a number of suicide bomb attacks in Israel as well as 10,000 rockets into Israel. They seized control of Gaza by literally throwing the opposition off of buildings and are holding a soldier, Gilad Shalit, kidnapped without any access to the Red Cross or the UN. Is that your idea of democracy? Also, lets not forget, Israel is not the only country which refuses to have anything to do with Hamas.

EDIT: They have allowed 10,000 rockets to be fired into Israel, a large majority by their own fighters.

 

[Alfred the greatx]

The palestinians don't trust the israelis for damn good reasons. All the ploughed up olive groves, all the confiscated houses, all the f***ing big walls and blockades and all the dead children are DAMN good reasons imo.

As I said before I totally support the right of israel to exist within secure borders but when your foreign policy is based almost entirely on a 3000 year old fairy tale that is taking the piss quite frankly. israel does NOT have the right to Jerusalem and does not have the right to still be in illegal occupation of land captured in 1967. They do not have the right annex palestinian land just because some f***ing yank decides they want to now be called an israeli instead of american and fancies some land that a palestinian family have been living on for centuries.

And they sure as hell do not have the right to attack ships in international waters and slaughter the people on those ships.

What he said