[Politics] Next leader of the Labour party

[Braggfan]

Classic. Slag off the one Labour lead that knew how to win a GE and call him a pseudo-Tory If someone with half the political savvy of Blair had lead Labour into either of the last GE's they'd have won.

It amazes me how people can look back on Blair fondly, and see him as a pillar of the left. I imagine you were probably one of those who believed him on the weapons of mass destruction, or at least you did at the time but now tell everyone you knew it was rubbish all along and actually supported the anti war protests.

 

[BLOCK F]

If Boris f***s up Brexit then Starmer is ideal. If Boris makes a success of it Labour wouldn’t get in for the next 20 years anyway. And let’s not forget that Boris is a trendy London remainer. He’s just good at lying.

Noticeable that the two on here opposing Starmer are Tories.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't know whether I am one of the two Tories you consider to be opposing Starmer, but if I am, then I am not opposing him, just putting forward one or two reservations.
What I want to see is a leader who will take Labour back to the centre left ground, provide a competent opposition to the Government and once again become an electable party.
I have more reservations re Rebecca Long-Bailey, McDonnell's protege, whom I reckon would be too left wing.
A general observation from reading social media, the newspapers and watching the telly is that there are an awful lot of Labourites who are in denial about the reasons for their election defeat. Until the denials are overcome, it is hard to see a way forward for sensible decision making to be made.

 

[Guinness Boy]

I don't know whether I am one of the two Tories you consider to be opposing Starmer, but if I am, then I am not opposing him, just putting forward one or two reservations.

You were. But fair enough, thanks for the clarification.

What I want to see is a leader who will take Labour back to the centre left ground, provide a competent opposition to the Government and once again become an electable party.
I have more reservations re Rebecca Long-Bailey, McDonnell's protege, whom I reckon would be too left wing.
A general observation from reading social media, the newspapers and watching the telly is that there are an awful lot of Labourites who are in denial about the reasons for their election defeat. Until the denials are overcome, it is hard to see a logical way forward for sensible decision making to be made.

Agree with all of that to be fair.

 

[DIFFBROOK]

But, take out the war and that is exactly the kind of leader Labour needs.

Its no use simply preaching to the converted. To win - which is what matters - Labour needs to make people vote for it who may never have done so. Its not a case of one more push, or voters will see the light. Those that have voted Tory in this election need to be convinced. If that means a pinker version of labour than full on red, then so be it. That surely has to be better than a Tory Govt. If you cant see that, then it really is all over

It amazes me how people can look back on Blair fondly, and see him as a pillar of the left. I imagine you were probably one of those who believed him on the weapons of mass destruction, or at least you did at the time but now tell everyone you knew it was rubbish all along and actually supported the anti war protests.

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

FFS, why don't you just have a day off?

I think it would do us all a world of good.

Yesterday - me - 1 post

Yesterday - you - 7 posts

But the referendum is done and dusted, were going and that's it.

The question is, at the next election, will the British electorate be given an option against the Tories that is appealing to them.

As passionate and eloquent as you are JRG, too many remember the strike torn nationalised industries of the past, and dont want to go back to those miserable days.

They want a Labour leader that doesn't think patriotism is a dirty word and they need to feel safe with a strong military and Trident protecting us in a nasty world.

Most of us dont mind others that have worked hard, enjoying their success and dont feel the need to confiscate it.Your small bunch of extremists dont offer any of that, just a vision of a return to 1970s East Germany.

A moderate centrist Labour party leader could tick all those boxes, you never will.

1. Yes - the referendum is over - I supported Leave (not Brexit) - and Corbyn (at McDonnell's prompting) f*cked up by changing the LP's position from respecting the referendum's result in 2017 - to adopting effectively a Remain position during the election.

2. What do you mean by 'appealing' - the choice really comes down to two diametrically opposed political viewpoints - a Tory approach (supported by the Blairites) of privatisation, zero-hour contracts, attacks on welfare and public services, giving massive tax breaks to the rich elites etc. - or - a socialist approach of defending the NHS, defending workers rights, protecting the poor, protecting public services, renationalising public services and making the rich pay taxes etc.

3. Have a look at the history of nationalised industries and you will find that up until 1973 strikes were rare (strikes were far more common in private industry - including places like privately owned coalmines). After the economic crash in 1973 the Tories under Heath began attacking jobs and wages which led to strike action - the Tory policies were continued by Wilson and Callaghan which ultimately led to Thatcher coming to power. If Wilson came out and said that the working class was not going to be forced to pay for an economic crisis created by imperialism then you would be living in a different Britain now.

4. To be honest the stuff about 'patriotism' is b*llocks - Trident does not protect anyone - it is a very big and very expensive (£200billion expensive) stick that has one purpose - to destroy the planet. Has the British military action in Afghanistan and Iraq made anyone 'feel safe' - has it prevented any attack - or has it created two states that are now basically ungovernable (and incidentally - Britain had their military stuck in Afghanistan for decades - so Britain bears a large part of the responsibility in historical terms for the mess that is there today). If you want to feel safe then the best way to do it is by not interfering in the affairs of another country (Ireland has never invaded anyone - apart from the North of England in the 3/4th century - and has never faced an attack from Islamic terrorism - what it has faced is internal terrorism that at its root was caused by 700 years of British domination).

5. Who said anything about 'confiscating' the stuff people work hard for ? there are two questions here - why should wealthy people not pay more in tax (because at the moment they don't - in 2017 out of the top 100 companies in Britain - only 69 disclosed their tax affairs - 13 paid not tax and some received a tax credit from the revenue - BP made £5.6billion in profits in 2017 and not alone didn't pay any tax, they got a tax credit of £166million (see below)

6. A 'moderate centrist' LP leader is a re-branding of Blair - more pale pink Tory policies - more privatisation, more attacks on welfare - and more wars.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

This is true, but the failure to me of Labour under Corbyn has been that they have wanted to 'own' their policies as if there were original, innovate, radical for the country. The reality is the programme presented by Labour going back to Milliband in '15, and then in '17 and '19 is they borrowed from other countries that have implemented them, and are successfully living with them. The Labour manifesto wasn't revolutionary, or extreme left, it was simply matching up with other left leaning neighbours, however it was presented as if it was unique, completely new and untested, and easily tainted because of that.

I also think the funding of the programme solely through taxation of companies and the wealthy was a mistake, and for most working people with a left leaning mentality, they are prepared to pay for better services and the burden doesn't necessarily have to come from just one place. Telling people you can have the world because that lot over there are paying for it isn't want proud working communities want. Tell them their schools, hospitals and services will be better with a little bit extra tax, as well as taxing the higher paid would be a more balanced message.

The Liberals have been wiped out again as the representative of the centre ground. Brexit has skewed everything. Deserting sensible taxation in line with other European neighbours, spending commitments, nationalisation, free education would be a mistake in my view simply because a natural reaction when the conservatives win is to take the centre ground.

I think this is less about moving left or right, and more about how Labour justifies and presents it's plans. More references how Britain compares globally is needed. Perceptions need to be changed. My Dad, a Tory voter all his life until this election rubbished Labour's plans for the railways, 'you should have seen how much we put into British Rail and the quality of the services then'. When I showed him we subsidise profit making foreign state run rail franchises far more than we did BR, he was genuinely shocked. There didn't seem any real attempt to present this kind of thing though.

Fair enough.

But to present tried and trusted (not sure if denuclearising the UK is a tried and trusted policy, but anyway) unoriginal policies as novel radical and mould breaking was, as you say, a bit silly.

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

It's rare we agree but you are spot on. JRG would rather see people suffer so he has an excuse to mobilse them on to the streets, all to soothe his ideological ego. I'd rather Johnson did make a sucess of Brexit and bring some prosperity to the North. I'm not holding my breath but if he did it then it would be wonderful for this country.

I utterly reject your assertion - why - as a socialist who wants to improve the lot of working class people - would I want working class people to suffer?

I would love it if we didn't live in a society where there was obscene wealth and the level of inequality was causing all forms of poverty and deprivation - I would like nothing better than to be able to read (and write) my books - to be able to sit down every evening in front of a fire and relax or go for a walk on a beach.

Unfortunately - none of us live in a society where most of us do not struggle on a day-to-day just to survive - physically, financially, emotionally, psychologically etc.

I do not want to see people taking to the streets - but I recognise that we live in a society where this is inevitable as people no longer are able to cope with the life they face (a life brought about by the policies of the rich elites) - and when they take to the streets, as they inevitably will, I will stand shoulder to shoulder with them - explaining what I see is a potential way forward - and striving to make the world a better place.

There is an old saying from a old socialist in Ireland that is apt for the current situation - 'the great only appear great because we are on our knees - let us rise'.

 

[beorhthelm]

5. Who said anything about 'confiscating' the stuff people work hard for ? there are two questions here - why should wealthy people not pay more in tax (because at the moment they don't - in 2017 out of the top 100 companies in Britain - only 69 disclosed their tax affairs - 13 paid not tax and some received a tax credit from the revenue - BP made £5.6billion in profits in 2017 and not alone didn't pay any tax, they got a tax credit of £166million (see below)

aside from the switch from wealthy people to companies, you need to understand that companies pay taxes in the countries they fall due, so multinational companies pay taxes in other countries. im not in the least surprised household names like Antofagasta (Chilean mining) or NMC Health (UAE healthcare) pay no tax here. i'd have thought coming from Ireland that takes advantage of moving tax domicile, you'd have know that.

 

[SollysLeftFoot]

It amazes me how people can look back on Blair fondly, and see him as a pillar of the left. I imagine you were probably one of those who believed him on the weapons of mass destruction, or at least you did at the time but now tell everyone you knew it was rubbish all along and actually supported the anti war protests.

Bragg fan - check
The war - check
Ignore domestic policies - check
Patronising comment, touting a false sense of moral superiority - check


BINGO.

 

[SollysLeftFoot]

and more wars.

This has to be one of the worst attempts at formulating an argument I have ever seen.

You're telling me that left wing = anti-war? Absolutely ludicrous.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

5. Who said anything about 'confiscating' the stuff people work hard for ? there are two questions here - why should wealthy people not pay more in tax (because at the moment they don't - in 2017 out of the top 100 companies in Britain - only 69 disclosed their tax affairs - 13 paid not tax and some received a tax credit from the revenue - BP made £5.6billion in profits in 2017 and not alone didn't pay any tax, they got a tax credit of £166million (see below)

You're a tad confused - you start talking about 'wealthy people' and accuse them of not paying more tax .... which in fact they do. Then you blend it with 'rich' companies such as BP. Let's take BP for a second as you've mentioned them. The reason they got a tax rebate was because of massive, and I mean massive, losses in previous years - something you conveniently forget to mention. Bit like you ignoring the posts from myself and others previously showing you lied. As my pension pot probably contains BP shares I'm rather happy they have more to pay 'shareholders' than tax.

 

[Chicken Run]

I utterly reject your assertion - why - as a socialist who wants to improve the lot of working class people - would I want working class people to suffer?

I would love it if we didn't live in a society where there was obscene wealth and the level of inequality was causing all forms of poverty and deprivation - I would like nothing better than to be able to read (and write) my books - to be able to sit down every evening in front of a fire and relax or go for a walk on a beach.

Unfortunately - none of us live in a society where most of us do not struggle on a day-to-day just to survive - physically, financially, emotionally, psychologically etc.

I do not want to see people taking to the streets - but I recognise that we live in a society where this is inevitable as people no longer are able to cope with the life they face (a life brought about by the policies of the rich elites) - and when they take to the streets, as they inevitably will, I will stand shoulder to shoulder with them - explaining what I see is a potential way forward - and striving to make the world a better place.

There is an old saying from a old socialist in Ireland that is apt for the current situation - 'the great only appear great because we are on our knees - let us rise'.

Is there any chance you could fuccck off for a day so that us fans might prepare for our biggest match to date this season?

 

[Braggfan]

Bragg fan - check
The war - check
Ignore domestic policies - check
Patronising comment, touting a false sense of moral superiority - check


BINGO.

False sense of moral superiority? I wouldn't call it false because I'm not the one singing the praises of a war criminal.

 

[blue-shifted]

aside from the switch from wealthy people to companies, you need to understand that companies pay taxes in the countries they fall due, so multinational companies pay taxes in other countries. im not in the least surprised household names like Antofagasta (Chilean mining) or NMC Health (UAE healthcare) pay no tax here. i'd have thought coming from Ireland that takes advantage of moving tax domicile, you'd have know that.

Do you know what country British Petroleum, paid tax in, and how much of the 5.6bn Pounds profit got paid in the end?

Fair to have a pop at Labour at the moment, but defending non tax paying mega companies is taking it too far.

 

[Wozza]

6. A 'moderate centrist' LP leader is a re-branding of Blair

Election results over the past 40-50 years suggests that just left of centre is about as far as the majority of the electorate will go.

Given the Labour no longer has support in Scotland, it needs support from middle England - and they won't vote for socialism, and a party which appears anti-business.

Labour should absolutely reposition as a 'Tory Lite' to get elected (which means backing business, the military etc, dumping student politics, and getting a leader who looks prime ministerial) - and then try to be more progressive.

 

[Titanic]

Stephen Kinnonck: "A 'one more heave Corbynista' is not what the Labour Party needs".

Good luck with that.

 

[blue-shifted]

You're a tad confused - you start talking about 'wealthy people' and accuse them of not paying more tax .... which in fact they do. Then you blend it with 'rich' companies such as BP. Let's take BP for a second as you've mentioned them. The reason they got a tax rebate was because of massive, and I mean massive, losses in previous years - something you conveniently forget to mention. Bit like you ignoring the posts from myself and others previously showing you lied. As my pension pot probably contains BP shares I'm rather happy they have more to pay 'shareholders' than tax.

Stop just a moment

Are you saying you’d rather BP etc paid their profits to their shareholders rather than paid any tax? As it will improve your pension?

I think I can guess who you voted for

 

[dingodan]

 

[Gwylan]

Its no use simply preaching to the converted. To win - which is what matters - Labour needs to make people vote for it who may never have done so. r

Given the Labour no longer has support in Scotland, it needs support from middle England - and they won't vote for socialism, and a party which appears anti-business.

Labour should absolutely reposition as a 'Tory Lite' to get elected (which means backing business, the military etc, dumping student politics, and getting a leader who looks prime ministerial) - and then try to be more progressive.

I disagree. I think Labour needs to attract those people who have voted for it in the past and no longer do so. Even without Scotland, there are enough seats in the north, midlands and Wales that would give a majority (or close to one). I don't get this idea that aiming for the centre is the place to be - look at how the LDs performed. It needs to seen as a party with some sort of working class appeal. That doesn't mean necessarily moving to the far left but it can't be seen as a party for a comfortable middle class.

And middle England will definitely vote for a party that's anti-business - it's just voted for a party led by someone whose policy can be described as "f*** business"

Labour is already attracting people who've never voted for it - what it needs to do is get the old ones back.

 

[Wozza]

I disagree. I think Labour needs to attract those people who have voted for it in the past and no longer do so.

Blair voters?

I don't get this idea that aiming for the centre is the place to be - look at how the LDs performed.

Ok...

Labour is already attracting people who've never voted for it - what it needs to do is get the old ones back.

Every party does!

Again which old ones back? Blair voters?