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[Politics] Next leader of the Labour party



Hastings gull

Well-known member
Nov 23, 2013
4,643
It's rare we agree but you are spot on. JRG would rather see people suffer so he has an excuse to mobilse them on to the streets, all to soothe his ideological ego. I'd rather Johnson did make a sucess of Brexit and bring some prosperity to the North. I'm not holding my breath but if he did it then it would be wonderful for this country.

Thanks. strangely, I was just going to agree with what you wrote on post 369, notably that one should put ideology aside, and hope for what is the best, despite doubts that one might have. Keep agreeing like this and people will talk . .
 




Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patron
Oct 8, 2003
55,458
Faversham
Doesn't look too bad to me . I would give Jeremy another 5 more years and see how things are then .

:lolol:

The numbers can be misleading. In 2005 the liberals got 22% and the tories 32%. Labour (35%) lost a lot of votes to the liberals due to 'the dodgy dossier' but still won a working majority.

In the previous election the results were 41% labour, 18% liberal and 32% tory. In both the second and third Blair wins the turnout was low (60%) uninspiring tories and liberals.

Back in 1997 it was 43% to Labour, 31% tory and 17% liberal, and Mr Tony got 13,518,167 votes, with a 71% turnout. Unprecedented for labour.

After 2005 we have the 2010 Cameron win: 36% tory, 29% labour, 23.0% liberal, turnout upt to 65%. The swing voters turned out to ditch Brown, and lots of labour voters went liberal because of the increasing stink about the 'dodgy dossier' and 'illegal war'. What a compelling trope that was. It annoys me to hear left wing 'labour supporters' like my little brother still going on about it, as if it is a hex to keep labour pure and free of further Blairite incursion.

So basically labour used to do badly when they shipped votes to the liberals....

But by 2017 things changed. The liberals were hammered on 7%. Tories and labour had 43% and 40%, the best showing by labour since the first Blair win....however that does not tell the whole story. The turnout was high - 69%. However, the SNP, with only 3% (all in, er, Scotland) got 35 seats. They had only 5 seats when Blair won his landslide. Labour cannot win without Scotland it seems, even when they do well in their heartlands. Moreover, a left wing labour leader may do better in the heartlands than a moderate, but worse in the more marginal seats - the ones they need to win. They didn't win (even though lots of labour supporters talk as if they, Corbyn, did win).

Now in 2019, we have a tory landslide of 44%, and in % terms a labour collapse to 32%. In Scotland labour remain dead with SNP up to 48 seats. So even with a liberal collapse to 11%, labour did not gain sufficiently from leftwing liberals (or liberal socialists) as they had in the past. Turnout was pretty high at 67%.

That's all a bit longwinded but it seems to me that the trajectory is not towards the electorate being increasingly drawn to Corbyn style labour. People did vote for Corbyn in their droves in 2017, but despite the tories not getting Brexit done, the trajectory now is towards a labour meltdown. After all that tory cockwomblry, the labour vote collapsed. Think about that, momentum fans. There is no evidence at all that all labour need to do is lurch further to the left and all will be well. Evidence from past elections suggests the opposite - when labour are moderate they attract votes that would otherwise go to the liberals.

Finally, scottish nationalism has now reduced Labour's attainable target by almost 50 seats (tories have had few Scottish seats for decades). That in itself spells tough times ahead for labour.

The new labour leader must become plausible in Scotland, plausible about Brexit, consistent and resolute in her position, modest in her aspirations (support the NHS, schools, police and military, accept some tax rises) and not threaten to soak the rich, attack capital, and promise insane things that people don't want (like forced renationalisations, free ****ing wifi and other daft gimmicks). Oh, and have a rapid response team (like Blair set up) to deal with any media malarkey, while avoiding machine-gunning herself in the head by giving apparent succour to hopeless and irrelevant causes (including by 'unwittingly' sharing a platform with terrorists, and tweeting support for antisemitic artworks she 'categorically' hadn't 'actually seen'. FFS.).

Also, they need to have more courage and vision than Blair - yes, be softer at first to get a majority (don't frighten people with chest-beating vows to lurch immediately leftwards), but remember the project IS to bring succour to the weak and poor as well as freedom to the talented to succeed (the project IS to move leftwards); Blair lost sight of this.

I'd wish Boris all the best of luck saving us (and himself) from a damaging Brexit dabacle but, frankly, Boris needs no more luck. He's had an insane amount of it alread in the last few years.
 


Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patron
Oct 8, 2003
55,458
Faversham
It's rare we agree but you are spot on. JRG would rather see people suffer so he has an excuse to mobilse them on to the streets, all to soothe his ideological ego. I'd rather Johnson did make a sucess of Brexit and bring some prosperity to the North. I'm not holding my breath but if he did it then it would be wonderful for this country.

This.

You can't wish a PM to fail on something as critical as Brexit. Especially when they appear to be committed to do it come what may.

Wishing that he wouldn't do it at all is of course an entirely different matter, but now, alas, no longer on the menu.
 


Hastings gull

Well-known member
Nov 23, 2013
4,643
This.

You can't wish a PM to fail on something as critical as Brexit. Especially when they appear to be committed to do it come what may.

Wishing that he wouldn't do it at all is of course an entirely different matter, but now, alas, no longer on the menu.

Reasonable post -and I did actually vote remain. At some stage, you have to say; Ok, its not what I wanted, but lets make a good show of it.
 






Hampster Gull

Well-known member
Dec 22, 2010
13,465
:lolol:

The numbers can be misleading. In 2005 the liberals got 22% and the tories 32%. Labour (35%) lost a lot of votes to the liberals due to 'the dodgy dossier' but still won a working majority.

In the previous election the results were 41% labour, 18% liberal and 32% tory. In both the second and third Blair wins the turnout was low (60%) uninspiring tories and liberals.

Back in 1997 it was 43% to Labour, 31% tory and 17% liberal, and Mr Tony got 13,518,167 votes, with a 71% turnout. Unprecedented for labour.

After 2005 we have the 2010 Cameron win: 36% tory, 29% labour, 23.0% liberal, turnout upt to 65%. The swing voters turned out to ditch Brown, and lots of labour voters went liberal because of the increasing stink about the 'dodgy dossier' and 'illegal war'. What a compelling trope that was. It annoys me to hear left wing 'labour supporters' like my little brother still going on about it, as if it is a hex to keep labour pure and free of further Blairite incursion.

So basically labour used to do badly when they shipped votes to the liberals....

But by 2017 things changed. The liberals were hammered on 7%. Tories and labour had 43% and 40%, the best showing by labour since the first Blair win....however that does not tell the whole story. The turnout was high - 69%. However, the SNP, with only 3% (all in, er, Scotland) got 35 seats. They had only 5 seats when Blair won his landslide. Labour cannot win without Scotland it seems, even when they do well in their heartlands. Moreover, a left wing labour leader may do better in the heartlands than a moderate, but worse in the more marginal seats - the ones they need to win. They didn't win (even though lots of labour supporters talk as if they, Corbyn, did win).

Now in 2019, we have a tory landslide of 44%, and in % terms a labour collapse to 32%. In Scotland labour remain dead with SNP up to 48 seats. So even with a liberal collapse to 11%, labour did not gain sufficiently from leftwing liberals (or liberal socialists) as they had in the past. Turnout was pretty high at 67%.

That's all a bit longwinded but it seems to me that the trajectory is not towards the electorate being increasingly drawn to Corbyn style labour. People did vote for Corbyn in their droves in 2017, but despite the tories not getting Brexit done, the trajectory now is towards a labour meltdown. After all that tory cockwomblry, the labour vote collapsed. Think about that, momentum fans. There is no evidence at all that all labour need to do is lurch further to the left and all will be well. Evidence from past elections suggests the opposite - when labour are moderate they attract votes that would otherwise go to the liberals.

Finally, scottish nationalism has now reduced Labour's attainable target by almost 50 seats (tories have had few Scottish seats for decades). That in itself spells tough times ahead for labour.

The new labour leader must become plausible in Scotland, plausible about Brexit, consistent and resolute in her position, modest in her aspirations (support the NHS, schools, police and military, accept some tax rises) and not threaten to soak the rich, attack capital, and promise insane things that people don't want (like forced renationalisations, free ****ing wifi and other daft gimmicks). Oh, and have a rapid response team (like Blair set up) to deal with any media malarkey, while avoiding machine-gunning herself in the head by giving apparent succour to hopeless and irrelevant causes (including by 'unwittingly' sharing a platform with terrorists, and tweeting support for antisemitic artworks she 'categorically' hadn't 'actually seen'. FFS.).

Also, they need to have more courage and vision than Blair - yes, be softer at first to get a majority (don't frighten people with chest-beating vows to lurch immediately leftwards), but remember the project IS to bring succour to the weak and poor as well as freedom to the talented to succeed (the project IS to move leftwards); Blair lost sight of this.

I'd wish Boris all the best of luck saving us (and himself) from a damaging Brexit dabacle but, frankly, Boris needs no more luck. He's had an insane amount of it alread in the last few years.

Put on a skirt and run, I’d vote for you on that agenda
 




drew

Drew
Oct 3, 2006
23,488
Burgess Hill
Lot of talk about having a northern leader.

Where were the following born?

1. Tony Blair
2. Gordon Brown
3. John Smith
4. Harold Wilson


Add in that Kinnock was Welsh so the same criteria for the North feeling left out will probably apply to the Welsh. Also, Foot was born in Plymouth, further from London than Manchester!

This north south divide is a smokescreen in that it is irrelevant from where the leader comes from, it is more important that they can lead, which quite patently, Corbyn couldn't do.
 




Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patron
Oct 8, 2003
55,458
Faversham
A mate of mine (old labour, liked Corbyn) tells me that he really likes Long-Baliey. I looked her up and can't find anything much about her. Loyal Corbyn supporter, always votes with the Corbyn line, is all I can find. There is even a potted biog on the Sun web pages that says nothing critical about her! That seems odd. She sounds too inexperienced to lead to me.

Does anyone know whether she has any outstanding virtues or handicaps relevant to a leadership bid? Asking for a friend, like.
 


pb21

Well-known member
Apr 23, 2010
6,648
Lot of talk about having a northern leader.

Where were the following born?

1. Tony Blair
2. Gordon Brown
3. John Smith
4. Harold Wilson


Add in that Kinnock was Welsh so the same criteria for the North feeling left out will probably apply to the Welsh. Also, Foot was born in Plymouth, further from London than Manchester!

This north south divide is a smokescreen in that it is irrelevant from where the leader comes from, it is more important that they can lead, which quite patently, Corbyn couldn't do.

The first three Scotland, the fourth Huddersfield, all quite north.
 








Two Professors

Two Mad Professors
Jul 13, 2009
7,617
Multicultural Brum
Jess Phillips would be perfect.We all need a good laugh.
 


Blue Valkyrie

Not seen such Bravery!
Sep 1, 2012
32,165
Valhalla
The Labour party are seemingly heading for a mass eye roll moment from the electorate in March.


They look like showing very little willingness to learn the correct lesson from the election.
 




Bold Seagull

strong and stable with me, or...
Mar 18, 2010
30,341
Hove
Think about that, momentum fans. There is no evidence at all that all labour need to do is lurch further to the left and all will be well. Evidence from past elections suggests the opposite - when labour are moderate they attract votes that would otherwise go to the liberals.

This is true, but the failure to me of Labour under Corbyn has been that they have wanted to 'own' their policies as if there were original, innovate, radical for the country. The reality is the programme presented by Labour going back to Milliband in '15, and then in '17 and '19 is they borrowed from other countries that have implemented them, and are successfully living with them. The Labour manifesto wasn't revolutionary, or extreme left, it was simply matching up with other left leaning neighbours, however it was presented as if it was unique, completely new and untested, and easily tainted because of that.

I also think the funding of the programme solely through taxation of companies and the wealthy was a mistake, and for most working people with a left leaning mentality, they are prepared to pay for better services and the burden doesn't necessarily have to come from just one place. Telling people you can have the world because that lot over there are paying for it isn't want proud working communities want. Tell them their schools, hospitals and services will be better with a little bit extra tax, as well as taxing the higher paid would be a more balanced message.

The Liberals have been wiped out again as the representative of the centre ground. Brexit has skewed everything. Deserting sensible taxation in line with other European neighbours, spending commitments, nationalisation, free education would be a mistake in my view simply because a natural reaction when the conservatives win is to take the centre ground.

I think this is less about moving left or right, and more about how Labour justifies and presents it's plans. More references how Britain compares globally is needed. Perceptions need to be changed. My Dad, a Tory voter all his life until this election rubbished Labour's plans for the railways, 'you should have seen how much we put into British Rail and the quality of the services then'. When I showed him we subsidise profit making foreign state run rail franchises far more than we did BR, he was genuinely shocked. There didn't seem any real attempt to present this kind of thing though.
 


Gwylan

Well-known member
Jul 5, 2003
31,780
Uffern
Jess Phillips would be perfect.We all need a good laugh.

Jess Phillips won't get it - she's very much out of step with the membership - but the Tories wouldn't be laughing if she did win. She's a Remainer who represents a constituency that voted very heavily to leave the EU but, despite this, only lost 2% of her share of the vote - massively down on the national average.

I imagine that she'd be one of the people that the Tories would fear most.
 


CheeseRolls

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jan 27, 2009
6,191
Shoreham Beach
Jess Phillips won't get it - she's very much out of step with the membership - but the Tories wouldn't be laughing if she did win. She's a Remainer who represents a constituency that voted very heavily to leave the EU but, despite this, only lost 2% of her share of the vote - massively down on the national average.

I imagine that she'd be one of the people that the Tories would fear most.
She would also run rings around Boris. He would be okay in the short term, with the wind in his sails, but once things get a little tricky, he would be running for the nearest fridge.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
 


Hugo Rune

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Feb 23, 2012
23,548
Brighton
Jess Phillips won't get it - she's very much out of step with the membership - but the Tories wouldn't be laughing if she did win. She's a Remainer who represents a constituency that voted very heavily to leave the EU but, despite this, only lost 2% of her share of the vote - massively down on the national average.

I imagine that she'd be one of the people that the Tories would fear most.

I agree that Jess Phillips won’t get it. But I do think the Tories would be very pleased if she was leader.

She is a great MP and comes across as a good person but is she leadership material? Also, the right wing press would destroy her with Tory approved misogyny and classist hate rhetoric.

Despite this, I think she handles Mogg very well here:
https://youtu.be/fMQLSkM1_sU
 




oneillco

Well-known member
Feb 13, 2013
1,306
This is true, but the failure to me of Labour under Corbyn has been that they have wanted to 'own' their policies as if there were original, innovate, radical for the country. The reality is the programme presented by Labour going back to Milliband in '15, and then in '17 and '19 is they borrowed from other countries that have implemented them, and are successfully living with them. The Labour manifesto wasn't revolutionary, or extreme left, it was simply matching up with other left leaning neighbours, however it was presented as if it was unique, completely new and untested, and easily tainted because of that.

I also think the funding of the programme solely through taxation of companies and the wealthy was a mistake, and for most working people with a left leaning mentality, they are prepared to pay for better services and the burden doesn't necessarily have to come from just one place. Telling people you can have the world because that lot over there are paying for it isn't want proud working communities want. Tell them their schools, hospitals and services will be better with a little bit extra tax, as well as taxing the higher paid would be a more balanced message.

The Liberals have been wiped out again as the representative of the centre ground. Brexit has skewed everything. Deserting sensible taxation in line with other European neighbours, spending commitments, nationalisation, free education would be a mistake in my view simply because a natural reaction when the conservatives win is to take the centre ground.

I think this is less about moving left or right, and more about how Labour justifies and presents it's plans. More references how Britain compares globally is needed. Perceptions need to be changed. My Dad, a Tory voter all his life until this election rubbished Labour's plans for the railways, 'you should have seen how much we put into British Rail and the quality of the services then'. When I showed him we subsidise profit making foreign state run rail franchises far more than we did BR, he was genuinely shocked. There didn't seem any real attempt to present this kind of thing though.

I agree that the manifesto policies were not new or original and have been proven to work in other high-functioning countries, but those countries took decades to arrive at where they are now. Labour producing such a long wish list and seemingly every other day chucking in other new ideas just didn't seem credible. They should have selected their top 3 priorities (NHS, homelessness, social care?) and hammered those messages home. Do a good job, win another election and choose the next 3 priorities.
 


Gwylan

Well-known member
Jul 5, 2003
31,780
Uffern
I agree that Jess Phillips won’t get it. But I do think the Tories would be very pleased if she was leader.

She is a great MP and comes across as a good person but is she leadership material? Also, the right wing press would destroy her with Tory approved misogyny and classist hate rhetoric.

Despite this, I think she handles Mogg very well here:
https://youtu.be/fMQLSkM1_sU

The right wing press would go after any Labour leader. Tony Blair was probably the most right wing leader the party has ever had and he was called "the most dangerous man in Britain"

If they want to pile on her for being working class then I think it would add to her appeal; remember, it's the working class that Labour needs to win back.

It's not the press that she'd worry about, it's the party. She has too many enemies and once she was elected, there'd be plots galore
 


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