New Poll. Europe: In or Out

[Lincoln Imp]

what on earth are you on about a scam is a scam no matter what way you want to dress it up,
are you saying then that the irish referendum was absolutely fair and are you also saying that both the dutch and french referendums were fair too. have you not heard of the lisbon treaty, come to that do you know the true meaning of fairness ?,
if you can actually be arsed,, look it up and you will find the evidence to back up what i have been saying, whatever way you want to look at it they were all rigged end of.

P.S. i will do as i please and i definitely shall not be taking any advise from you ta. ..

On the assumption that you are committed Europhile with a talent for parody, congratulations.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Sometimes.....just sometimes....I look at who is 'for' or 'against' and if I have followed that character and the way he conducts himself, that does affect my judgement to a small degree.

That way lies madness ... I quite like Gove but loathe Galloway although he's mellowed a bit in recent years. Both are in team leave which is very confusing!

 

[Soulman]

That way lies madness ... I quite like Gove but loathe Galloway although he's mellowed a bit in recent years. Both are in team leave which is very confusing!

I wish neither of them were in team leave, Gove is very unpopular and Galloway is...... i won't put what i think on here.

 

[brighton fella]

On the assumption that you are committed Europhile with a talent for parody, congratulations.[/QUOTE:

never mind

 

[brighton fella]

I wish neither of them were in team leave, Gove is very unpopular and Galloway is...... i won't put what i think on here.

i despised galloway and it wasn't until a year ago when i changed my mind about the man, i disagree with a lot the man has to say but he got my attention when i heard that he was producing a film about tony blair,
any man who's prepared to take hat c*nt out is a friend of mine.

 

[cunning fergus]

We would never have defeated Napoleon without Prussia and the Dutch. Austria and Russia were mobilising against him as well. Napoleons France was the odd one out in those days !!

On the contrary, when Napoleon rolled into Russia in 1812 he was at the head of very much a European army, he had relatives on thrones throughout Europe, he was himself married to a Hapsburg Princess, and his son was known as the King of Rome. So much for the republican spirit of liberte, egalite and fraternite. Make no mistake Napoleon and his continental system was French led but it was pan European.

Russia was invaded because it reneged on a treaty it had signed with France that was intended to isolate GB under the continental system and at that time GB's only European ally was Portugal.

When Wellington's army fought Napoleon's at Waterloo it was far from certain that many of the Belgians and Dutch would fight Napoleon because they had previously fought with Napoleon in his European campaigns, which were primarily against Austrian led coalitions.

Prussia was essential in the end, it had suffered under Napoleon in a way many other countries at that time did not.

Napoleon (and France) were absolutely not the odd ones out.

 

[dangull]

57% -42% for to leave at the moment.

The good people of Sussex have spoken.

It may all come down to the Croydon area.

 

[crookie]

On the contrary, when Napoleon rolled into Russia in 1812 he was at the head of very much a European army, he had relatives on thrones throughout Europe, he was himself married to a Hapsburg Princess, and his son was known as the King of Rome. So much for the republican spirit of liberte, egalite and fraternite. Make no mistake Napoleon and his continental system was French led but it was pan European.

Russia was invaded because it reneged on a treaty it had signed with France that was intended to isolate GB under the continental system and at that time GB's only European ally was Portugal.

When Wellington's army fought Napoleon's at Waterloo it was far from certain that many of the Belgians and Dutch would fight Napoleon because they had previously fought with Napoleon in his European campaigns, which were primarily against Austrian led coalitions.

Prussia was essential in the end, it had suffered under Napoleon in a way many other countries at that time did not.

Napoleon (and France) were absolutely not the odd ones out.

Probably didn't make myself clear !! I did mean Napoleons second coming, and Waterloo. Wellington led the Anglo-Dutch forces, and Blucher the Prussians, who, after suffering a defeat, fortunately came again late in the day and turned the tide. Austria and Russia weren't there because Napoleon moved quickly, but they were in the process of mobilising against him

 

[crookie]

57% -42% for to leave at the moment.

The good people of Sussex have spoken.

It may all come down to the Croydon area.

That's a big swing on the previous poll. Wonder if Cameron may have won the battle, but lost the war

 

[cunning fergus]

Given that a few years ago nearly a quarter of under-24-year-olds didn't know who the prime minister was perhaps we should restrict voting to the over-70s.

(I can't see pro-membership voters agreeing to that though - research indicates that the most strongly anti-EU group is old, white, male and poorly educated.)

I suspect that these old white poorly educated males will have a significant cohort that (say) stormed the beaches at Normandy in 1944.

If only the silly white f*ckers had known...............

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Loving the Napoleonic War analysis.

This thread shows why the Swiss system is one to be admired. We should have numerous referendums to stimulate debate and argument on substantial issues rather than who's getting voted out on BB or X factor.

 

[BadFish]

That's a big swing on the previous poll. Wonder if Cameron may have won the battle, but lost the war

Maybe Cameron will keep doing the referendum until he gets the result he is looking for........ seems to work

I can't help but wonder if the swing is down to many NSC users not knowing that the poll has reopened.

 

[cunning fergus]

Probably didn't make myself clear !! I did mean Napoleons second coming, and Waterloo. Wellington led the Anglo-Dutch forces, and Blucher the Prussians, who, after suffering a defeat, fortunately came again late in the day and turned the tide. Austria and Russia weren't there because Napoleon moved quickly, but they were in the process of mobilising against him

Sure, I understand that, but that does not undermine the point I was making that prior to Waterloo Napoleon was master of Europe and a mostly compliant one at that.

He was immensely popular outside France.....this only started to wane when he started to parachute his relatives onto thrones, as the disaster in Spain demonstrates. The Swedish Royal family's lineage still goes back to one of Napoleon's mates he planted on the throne, and many European states still operate legal and constitutional systems consistent with the Code Napoleon.

Proof if needed that Napoleon and his influence was pan European.

 

[BadFish]

Loving the Napoleonic War analysis.

This thread shows why the Swiss system is one to be admired. We should have numerous referendums to stimulate debate and argument on substantial issues rather than who's getting voted out on BB or X factor.

I couldn't agree more on this. We have the technology to easily garner the people's opinions on a range of policy areas. Anyone would think that the government wouldn't want to do this.................. for some reason.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

what on earth are you on about a scam is a scam no matter what way you want to dress it up,
are you saying then that the irish referendum was absolutely fair and are you also saying that both the dutch and french referendums were fair too. have you not heard of the lisbon treaty, come to that do you know the true meaning of fairness ?,
if you can actually be arsed,, look it up and you will find the evidence to back up what i have been saying, whatever way you want to look at it they were all rigged end of.

P.S. i will do as i please and i definitely shall not be taking any advise from you ta. ..

Yes, a scam is a scam is a scam but that doesn't make it vote-rigging - in the same way that a crime is a crime is a crime but that doesn't make it shoplifting. You suggest that another poster doesn't care about vote-rigging but you have provided no evidence that vote-rigging existed - which was his point - only that you feel that some sort of scam was involved.

 

[cunning fergus]

I am genuinely interested to know why you doubt this, and hope that you will be able to cheer me up.

It seems to me that this would be a danger, particularly as we have already sold so many of our UK organisations off to foreign owners who have few traditional connections to the country. Take one of our biggest car plants for example, the jewel of NE manufacturing, Nissan. There was serious resistance from Nissan part-owners Renault to investment in Sunderland recently and although it went ahead it is much less likely to happen next time if the UK is outside the EU. And why on earth would Honda and Toyota want to base their next European plants outside the 'common market'? It would be illogical. The Indians might decide that moving Jaguar and Range Rover production exclusively to Slovakia is a step too far, as would the German owners of Rolls Royce and Bentley, but foreign owners of foreign brands would have no compunction about moving when the time came.

As far as I know the biggest British branded/British owned car manufacturer is Morgan but they won't help us much.

The evidence is that its all about cost.

Spain produces more French cars than France because Spanish costs are now significantly cheaper than France. This is due to the euro crisis and its implications for debt soaked Spain which cut pay by 40% and reduce workers rights to shit. The unions there took this on the chin ergo the political rise of a party like Podomos.

Ford on the other hand laid off thousands of jobs across Europe (including the UK) to move its manufacturing base to Turkey.

This was a move that the EU even subsidised with a loan to Ford by its investment bank.

So, two examples that prove whether or not you are in the EU the capitalist will go where costs are cheapest.

 

[crookie]

Sure, I understand that, but that does not undermine the point I was making that prior to Waterloo Napoleon was master of Europe and a mostly compliant one at that.

He was immensely popular outside France.....this only started to wane when he started to parachute his relatives onto thrones, as the disaster in Spain demonstrates. The Swedish Royal family's lineage still goes back to one of Napoleon's mates he planted on the throne, and many European states still operate legal and constitutional systems consistent with the Code Napoleon.

Proof if needed that Napoleon and his influence was pan European.

I must confess Napoleon's early campaigns are a bit of a blank spot in my historical knowledge so I certainly defer to you. Just read a great book about Waterloo recently which I hadn't really looked at in depth before. Interesting though then how he went from being very popular across the continent, to then mobilising the continent against him

 

[crookie]

Immigration and benefits
Pledge

"We will insist that EU migrants who want to claim tax credits and child benefit must live here and contribute to our country for a minimum of four years." - Conservative Party Manifesto 2015

What he got
An emergency brake that allows the UK to limit access to in-work benefits for union workers newly entering its labour market for seven years. This is a ‘win’ for Cameron, although he had reportedly demanded up to 13 years availability.

Euro safeguards
Pledge

A mechanism to ensure that “Britain can't be discriminated against because it's not part of the euro, can't pick up the bill for eurozone bail-outs, and crucially can’t have imposed on it changes the eurozone want to make without our consent.” - George Osborne to BBC Newsnight on January 14 2016

What he got

A significant ‘win’ for Mr Cameron here, after leaders agreed that just “one” non-Euro state can “indicate their reasoned opposition” to a measure being proposed by the eurozone states, and gave an undertaking that the Council “shall discuss the issue”. The council also pledges to “do all in its power” to engineer a “satisfactory solution” to address the concerns and seek to facilitate “a wider basis of agreement in the Council”.

Although in practice a British Prime Minister has usually had this power, if he protests loudly enough – as Mr Cameron did last year over UK involvement in the bailout of Greece – it is still a talismanic ‘win’ that campaigners will be able to point to when persuading voters that the UK will not be held to ransom by the in-built majority of Eurozone states.

There is also new language referring to a commitment to “preserve the level-playing field” designed to allay French fears that the UK was seeking carve-outs for the City that would enable it to avoid element of European banking regulation to give a competitive advantage to UK-based financial institution.

Working hours

Pledge

“For example, it is neither right nor necessary to claim that the integrity of the single market, or full membership of the European Union requires the working hours of British hospital doctors to be set in Brussels irrespective of the views of British parliamentarians and practitioners.

“In the same way we need to examine whether the balance is right in so many areas where the European Union has legislated including on the environment, social affairs and crime.” - David Cameron in his January 2013 Bloomberg speech

What he got

Nothing. Mr Cameron decided last August not to demand a full exclusion for the UK from EU employment directives after Labour and the trades unions made clear they would not support an EU renegotiation that included opting out of the Working Time Directive.

Budgets and EU waste

Pledge

“Can we carry on with an organisation that has a multi-billion pound budget but not enough focus on controlling spending and shutting down programmes that haven’t worked?" - David Cameron in his January 2013 Bloomberg speech

What he got

A pledge by the European Commission to continue its current work cutting red tape. Specifically to “continue its efforts to make EU law simpler and to reduce regulatory burden for EU business operators...by applying the 2015 Better Regulation Agenda, including in particular the Commission's Regulatory Fitness and Performance Programme (REFIT). Cutting red tape for entrepreneurship, in particular small and medium size enterprises, remains an overarching goal for all of us in delivering growth and jobs.”

Child benefit

Pledge

"If an EU migrant’s child is living abroad then they should receive no child benefit, no matter how long they have worked in the UK and no matter how much tax they have paid." - Conservative Party Manifesto 2015

What he got

This was one of the hardest-fought parts of the negotiation is where Mr Cameron appears to have given the most ground in order to win his headline “seven years” deal on his so-called “benefits brake".

The initial draft text of the deal carried an agreement to pay child benefits at local rates, specifically “an option to index such benefits to the standard of living in the Member State where the child resides.

The final deal text now says that indexation of child benefit should “only apply to new claims” when UK negotiators had wanted all EU migrant children receiving child benefit in their home countries to go onto the new rates immediately.

Instead, there will now be a four-year transition period with the new, lower rates not kicking in until January 1 2020. While Downing Street will claim this as a victory, critics will point out this is a very long way from the manifesto pledge.

Ever closer union

Pledge

“We want an end to our commitment to an ‘ever closer union’, as enshrined in the treaty to which every EU country has to sign up." - Conservative Party Manifesto 2015

What he got

A win for Mr Cameron who has convinced EU leaders that the EU treaties, when they are next opened, will include a new reference to make it clear that the words “ever closer union do not apply to the United Kingdom”.

This clearly meets the manifesto commitment, however in a sop to Europe’s federalists like Belgium early drafts suggesting this exemption might apply more broadly – for example to countries like Poland and Hungary who have no intention of joining the Euro any time soon - were removed. This is a blow to Mr Cameron’s calls for the EU to accept the need for a looser, more flexible ‘live and let live’ Europe.

Multi-currency union

Pledge

That the EU should formally recognise that it is a "multi-currency union" and that all members must not inevitably join the euro.

What he got

An apparent recognition, in writing, that while the union's objective is to establish "an economic and monetary union whose currency is the euro" it is also stated that "not all member states have the euro as their currency". Downing Street is claiming this as a victory for its vision of a multi-speed, multi-direction Europe. The deal text as a whole gives less credence to Mr Cameron’s desire for a “live and let live” Europe than Britain would have liked.

Security

Pledge

"To seek increased powers to bolster UK defences to "stop terrorists and other serious foreign criminals who pose a threat to our society from using spurious human rights arguments to prevent deportation." - Conservative Party Manifesto 2015

What he got

A win. Specifically an agreement for the UK to take "necessary restrictive measures" against individuals deemed to represent "a genuine and serious threat" to public safety, even if they do not pose an "imminent" threat to security. Taking a suspect's "past conduct" into account could be sufficient grounds to act.

No-one, least of all Cameron expected a Conservative majority, he had no idea that he wouldn't be able to jettison most of this, including the referendum itself, in the expected coalition negotiations

 

[Lincoln Imp]

The evidence is that its all about cost.

Spain produces more French cars than France because Spanish costs are now significantly cheaper than France. This is due to the euro crisis and its implications for debt soaked Spain which cut pay by 40% and reduce workers rights to shit. The unions there took this on the chin ergo the political rise of a party like Podomos.

Ford on the other hand laid off thousands of jobs across Europe (including the UK) to move its manufacturing base to Turkey.

This was a move that the EU even subsidised with a loan to Ford by its investment bank.

So, two examples that prove whether or not you are in the EU the capitalist will go where costs are cheapest.

Thanks for this, although of course Ford employs far more workers in the EU than in Turkey.

 

[brighton fella]

Yes, a scam is a scam is a scam but that doesn't make it vote-rigging - in the same way that a crime is a crime is a crime but that doesn't make it shoplifting. You suggest that another poster doesn't care about vote-rigging but you have provided no evidence that vote-rigging existed - which was his point - only that you feel that some sort of scam was involved.

ive already told you the once to look the evidence up, it's not as if it isn't out there.

..