[News] MPs defecting to The Independent Group in parliament

[lawros left foot]

Seeing a lot of Corbyn supporters (and Corbyn himself) citing the last GE as evidence that he's doing a good job and thus that the 7 who have resigned are somehow wrong to do so.

Unfortunately, Corbyn/Labour increasing their vote share in that GE has a lot more to do with how poorly May / the Tories are doing in Government than anything Corbyn may or may not have done.

I'm hoping this splinter group proves to be a catalyst for some genuine change in UK politics, as the political landscape here has been FUBAR ever since the Lib Dems (wrongly) took the blame from voters for the Tory austerity policies. We have a political system currently where the party of the right has been pulled too far right (initially in fear of UKIP, more latterly in fear of their home-grown ERG sub-party), and the party of the left is too far left. And both parties are being headed up by incompetent politicians, which has resulted in the current political debate being mostly framed by backbenchers and the unelected press.

If there was any hunger for centrist policies in the last election, why did the Lib Dems nearly get wiped out?
I personally don’t think Corbyns Labour policies are that far left, nationalisation of the privatised utility’s that we used to own, an increase in top rate of tax, proper funding of the NHS, all are socialist policies that Labour used to champion before light blue Tony Blair.

Anyway, 7 by elections to look forward to.


Oh,wait

 

[Weststander]

Tory boy Chuka Umunna to lead the new lot no doubt. Good riddance.

Any one who’s not a marxist is a Tory!

Umunna and liberal minded politicians are good for the UK, striking the right balance between reasonable taxation/genuinely supporting business, and a safety net for the poor, disabled, vulnerable.

The marxist redistribution of the cake theory doesn’t work because the cake rapidly shrinks. See USSR, Venezuala.

 

[Bold Seagull]

If there was any hunger for centrist policies in the last election, why did the Lib Dems nearly get wiped out?
I personally don’t think Corbyns Labour policies are that far left, nationalisation of the privatised utility’s that we used to own, an increase in top rate of tax, proper funding of the NHS, all are socialist policies that Labour used to champion before light blue Tony Blair.

The 2017 Labour Party manifesto was very similar to the Norwegian governments to the extent some commentators suggested it was a direct rip off. Norwegian's don't consider their government to be that far left either, and consider it more centre ground.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

What you and [MENTION=13368]BLOCK F[/MENTION] have both missed is that I wasn't extolling the virtues of Corbyn's Labour, I was merely countering the post that said he was the worse leader in living memory.

You've both extrapolated that into me saying it was some great success, I wasn't, but neither was it the worse leader's performance in living memory. My post was that simple a reply to another assertion.

There was nothing I said to be deluded about. The two of you both need to read posts in their context without jumping to conclusions you've bought to the table yourselves.

Apologies for putting words in your mouth!

Although...I do think that Corbyn's performance overall has been the worst labour leader's performance in living memory. I go back to Wilson (and I don't mean Harry. Or do I). Even Foot wasn't as bad as Corbyn. The huffy shit DHSS clerk persona beates even the bookish intellectual donkey jacket wearer into second place.

 

[Weststander]

If there was any hunger for centrist policies in the last election, why did the Lib Dems nearly get wiped out?
I personally don’t think Corbyns Labour policies are that far left, nationalisation of the privatised utility’s that we used to own, an increase in top rate of tax, proper funding of the NHS, all are socialist policies that Labour used to champion before light blue Tony Blair.

Raising the top rate of tax doesn’t pay for a fraction of the Momentum shopping list. Check out the true tax rates in Sweden for example, an idyll often cited by McDonnell. Virtually every worker gives up about one half of their wages in taxes.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

Hopefully the Blarites will split from labour and then we will have a proper marxist to vote for .

Fine if you're thing is protest, nonsensical if you're serious about winning an election.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

Can see The Independent Group scooping up huge numbers of first time Climate Change Kid voters in a couple of years if they decide to form a political party. Could welll end up a smarter, more politically engaged version of the Green Party. And the voters of the busted flush that is the Lib Dems may as well jump ship and get on board.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

If there was any hunger for centrist policies in the last election, why did the Lib Dems nearly get wiped out?
I personally don’t think Corbyns Labour policies are that far left, nationalisation of the privatised utility’s that we used to own, an increase in top rate of tax, proper funding of the NHS, all are socialist policies that Labour used to champion before light blue Tony Blair.

Anyway, 7 by elections to look forward to.


Oh,wait

I think plenty of commentators would say that what Corbyn and co are standing for now is fairly centrist compared to what the left wing of the labour party would have wanted 40 years ago.

But isn't one of the main things at the moment the vicious nature of much of the party faithful - sensible and moderate politicians being threatened with deselection, or just threatened, or bullied and being subjected to vile abuse and so on and so forth. I am aware it goes on around here and it doesn't hit the headlines or necessarily become common knowledge.

 

[lawros left foot]

Hopefully, Kate Hooey will join them, although she’d be more at home in the ERG.
How the hell she is still a Labour MP I really don’t understand, Ken Clarke is more of the left than her.

 

[BLOCK F]

I'll chip in with some elucidation. [MENTION=13368]BLOCK F[/MENTION] can correct me if I'm wrong:

'record membership' of half a million means that every left winger has been able to join, and will stay joined because it gives the left absolute control over the constitution and who becomes labour leader. The checks and balances that allowed any lefty to join were not there. Corbyn cannot be removed by the democratic processes in the labour party now. And they were created by Ed Milliband. Having a big membership is irrelevant - half a million is a tiny fraction of the electorate, and yet it probably includes 90% of the nation's fervant Corbyn supporters. This is why....

The failure of labour to defeat Mrs May was a disgrace. Yes, it was an enormous success for Corbyn, but only because everyone expected Corbyn to do worse than he did. He still led labour to defeat in an election any half decent labour leader would have absolutely walked.

I recall after the last election Corbyn supporters interviewed on the radio describeing the result as a victory. Righty ho. Like our victory agains Burnley recently.

'No compromise with the electorate'.

You apparent denial of these basic truths is why [MENTION=13368]BLOCK F[/MENTION] called you, deluded I suspect.I'll be more generous and say 'overy optimistic'......

Thank you, Harry.
I agree with what you have written, and although I will stick with 'deluded,' I reckon that your 'over optimistic' remark may be more acceptable to BS when he has had time to consider both his, and your post, further.
I think I am a red rag to a bull with BS.
Anyway, I hope I can rid myself of this turbulent lurgy before too long and regain my place amongst civilisation again.
P.S. I had to look up Umberto Eco on Google; that'll please BS and show him what an ignorant so and so I am!

 

[Gwylan]

Raising the top rate of tax doesn’t pay for a fraction of the Momentum shopping list. Check out the true tax rates in Sweden for example, an idyll often cited by McDonnell. Virtually every worker gives up about one half of their wages in taxes.

Sweden is the 9th happiest country in the world, so it doesn't look like the workers are too upset about it.

It's weird the way that people think Corbyn is far left, he'd have been mainstream Labour about 30 years ago. Hell, his policies aren't that different from ones held by the centre-right government in Germany

 

[Bold Seagull]

I think plenty of commentators would say that what Corbyn and co are standing for now is fairly centrist compared to what the left wing of the labour party would have wanted 40 years ago.

But isn't one of the main things at the moment the vicious nature of much of the party faithful - sensible and moderate politicians being threatened with deselection, or just threatened, or bullied and being subjected to vile abuse and so on and so forth. I am aware it goes on around here and it doesn't hit the headlines or necessarily become common knowledge.

Sarah Woollaston and Nick Boles both facing deselection votes this month.

 

[Titanic]

Hopefully, Kate Hooey will join them, although she’d be more at home in the ERG.
How the hell she is still a Labour MP I really don’t understand, Ken Clarke is more of the left than her.

They are too much anti-BrExit and pro-Peoples Vote for her. Their natural bedfellows are LibDems and SNP.

If/when BrExit is done one way or the other, what will they have left.... anti-antisemitism?

 

[Bold Seagull]

Thank you, Harry.
I agree with what you have written, and although I will stick with 'deluded,' I reckon that your 'over optimistic' remark may be more acceptable to BS when he has had time to consider both his, and your post, further.
I think I am a red rag to a bull with BS.
Anyway, I hope I can rid myself of this turbulent lurgy before too long and regain my place amongst civilisation again.
P.S. I had to look up Umberto Eco on Google; that'll please BS and show him what an ignorant so and so I am!

I wish you well and get better soon BLOCK F - I suppose I just react to being called deluded.

The Umberto Eco reference really comes from Alan Partridge's first radio series when a comedian he's interviewing starts impersonating him and says "I'm Alan Partridge, I'm the man. I'm Alan Partridge, I tell ya, I'm Alan Partridge. I'm the man who makes Jimmy Hill look like Umberto Eco. I'm Alan Partridge ..."

And Alan Partridge gets into this hilarious dialogue where Alan demands "Umberto Eco, translate that now"...

You're repeatedly called me deluded and other things by the way, I don't think I've ever called you anything back.

From 12.50 on here, or listen to the whole episode, might cheer you up.

 

[Pavilionaire]

Good luck to Chuka and the 7 as a group. They are correct that the Labour Party is dysfunctional and unelectable, and its leader is out of step with the majority of members when it comes to Brexit, particularly the young.

It would be great if they were joined by politicians from other parties. The biggest failure of Parliament since the EU Referendum is the lack of cross-party agreement on future Brexit policy, so it would be good to see Labour, Tory and Lib Dems come together and change the dynamic. Something has to change - the EU Referendum split the country and transformed UK politics overnight. The old party system is broken beyond repair.

 

[Chicken Run]

Labour party break-up ?

Even by your exemplary standards in the discipline, that is random whataboutery at it's absolute finest.

I appreciate your beloved party are in the process of redefining internal combustion but wtf is whataboutery, is it in the dictionary? Please define?

 

[Two Professors]

The current Labour leadership are so far up Islamic fan-boyism,they will never stop being the anti-semites party of choice.More votes,innit.

 

[ManOfSussex]

I appreciate your beloved party are in the process of redefining internal combustion but wtf is whataboutery, is it in the dictionary? Please define?

My beloved party? I was actually a member until 1998, but apart from 1997 in Brighton Pavilion and 2017 in Hastings & Rye I can't recall voting for Labour in anything else. Still, at least they're not the Tories though.

Whataboutery is very much in the dictionary. It's a very popular technique on NSC too.

whataboutery
noun
the technique or practice of responding to an accusation or difficult question by making a counter-accusation or raising a different issue.
"all too often, well-intentioned debate descends into whataboutery"

 

[Chicken Run]

Labour party break-up ?

John McDonnell suggests when asked what Jeremy Corbyn will do now to convince wavering MPs considering joining the independent group to stay within Labour, McDonnell says: "We’ll do what we’re doing always, which is an open door.

"We’re listening to people all the time.

The last time Corbyn spoke Luciana Berger personally was 2017, you would think that some of the vile things said at her from her own party colleagues might at have least warranted a face to face? As for McDonnell’s open door [emoji23]

 

[Chicken Run]

My beloved party? I was actually a member until 1998, but apart from 1997 in Brighton Pavilion and 2017 in Hastings & Rye I can't recall voting for Labour in anything else. Still, at least they're not the Tories though.

Whataboutery is very much in the dictionary. It's a very popular technique on NSC too.

whataboutery
noun
the technique or practice of responding to an accusation or difficult question by making a counter-accusation or raising a different issue.
"all too often, well-intentioned debate descends into whataboutery"

I neither responded to an accusation nor was it a difficult question, I just made a simple statement and you rather childishly pulled the old whatawhatthe**** card out [emoji23]