[News] Middle East conflict

[heathgate]

Is this opinion or fact? Do you have sources for this?

Not to see that attack for what it is, and what provoked it, is dangerously underestimating the seriousness of the situation. This is no longer a conflict of proxies - Israel made sure of that by directly attacking an Iranian embassy.

Btw - At the moment, we only have Israel’s word for it that there were no damaged buildings or, ‘fire on the ground’ - that information as expected would be controlled by the Israeli propaganda machine.

I do agree that the fact the US and UK/Jordan helped Israel out, gives them a stronger platform for urging restraint/a ceasefire in Gaza. However, let‘s see how Netanyahu responds now to Iran - he’s ignored the US and every UN resolution so far with his actions in Gaza, so I’m not holding my breath he is going to start listening now.

Israel always has, and always will do what is good for Israel.... it cares not for the toothless UN, it also cares not whether Iran or any of it's terrorist proxies attempt more of these attacks, Israel will deliver retribution at the time of its choosing.

Irans attack last night was an abject failure, Iran and it's allies are only mildly successful when it bombs or kidnaps civilians or military personnel in cowardly attacks in public places.... it presents itself as a serious military entity... take that brave attack on those very dangerous Philippino sailors the other day,... what a courageous attack that was.

Israel could, with a bit of effort, defeat Iran without putting a single boot on Iranian soil if it so desires, but Israel also, does not want to destroy anyone, they just want to live in peace.... but sadly, the militant Islamic world are not interested in peace.... just the annihilation of the nation of Israel and all it's Jewish citizens.

 

[Zeberdi]

I disagree. Israel do not threaten to use nuclear weapons to wipe out the whole world.

- Israel is threatening to attack Iran - has done for years - Israel is a nuclear power and has on more than one occasion in the past threatened Iran with nuclear strikes - that will almost certainly trigger a worldwide conflict.

Israel threatened to launch nuclear war on Iran - UN envoy

During his UNGA speech, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu asserted that “Iran must face a credible nuclear threat,” a statement the PMO later retracted.

www.jpost.com

Russia has made threats of using strategic nuclear weapons but it is a ridiculously hyperbolic response to say these have been against the ‘whole world’ or are a threat of intercontinental nuclear war. China and Iran, two major powers aligned to Russia and India are also an allies so certainly wouldn’t be included. Russia may have made nuclear threats but it’s been largely bluster and threats of nuclear strikes if NATO forces attack Russia and are an existential threat to Russia. The US and UK have the same longstanding threat if Russia attacks the US/Nato with nuclear weapons - it’s call MAD (for a reason)

Hamas (from Palestine) attacked Israel, killing about 1,200 people.
Hamas have stated that their goal is to remove Israel entirely

It’s laughable that anyone could think Hamas was capable of ‘removing’ Israel ‘entirely’ - but yes, prior to 1987 the Hamas Charter was to destroy Israel that became somewhat modified in 2017 when Hamas declared an acceptance of the creation of a Palestinian state along the 1967 lines ie for Isreal to be confined to the original 1947 borders drawn up by the Balfour partition.

Doctrine of Hamas

www.wilsoncenter.org

In the context of current events in Gaza, their goal has been to get Israel out of Gaza, release Palestinians held (illegally ) in detention in Israel, including children, to allow free movement of Palestinians in Gaza and for them to return to their homes. I haven’t heard Hamas leaders say they want to remove ‘Israel entirely’ from the ME recently but even if they have, who is closer to achieving their elimination objectives? Hamas destroying the State of Israel or Netanyahu destroying Gaza and pushing an entire population into starvation or bombing them to death?

Israel, for its part, has not said the want to take over the whole of Palestine.

Netanyahu has certainly said Palestinians should be ‘evacuated’ from Gaza and Palestine should be a part of Israel - that is the policy of the Lukid Party and has been for years. It is the policy of the Israeli Ambassador to the UK too, it was the policy of Trump.

Compare that with Russia/Ukraine.
Ukraine did not attack Russia, and were never going to attack Russia.

Not sure what this has to do with what I said, it does not make Netanyahu any less a threat to world peace or danger to the Palestinian people.

Ukraine has no intention of ever harming Russia.
Russia has stated that Ukraine has no right to exist, and intends to take the whole country for itself.

I think you need to do a bit more background reading on Netanyahu and the Religious Zionists he is in bed with tbh - he has unequivocally stated that Palestine has no right to exist and intends to claim the occupied territories into a Greater Israel - Trump’s Peace Plan went some way to beginning that process.

This isn’t a competition and I refuse to argue it as one. Both Putin and Netanyahu are extremely objectionable characters capable of leading Europe and the ME into a global conflict - they are both expansionists and extremists and are threatening their neighbours with genocidal impacts which in turn could trigger what people love to refer to as ‘WW3’.

 

[aolstudios]

I disagree. Israel do not threaten to use nuclear weapons to wipe out the whole world. While I'm against Israel's actions in Palestine, there are also differences between that and Russia's war against Ukraine:
Hamas (from Palestine) attacked Israel, killing about 1,200 people.
Hamas have stated that their goal is to remove Israel entirely.
Israel, for its part, has not said the want to take over the whole of Palestine.

Compare that with Russia/Ukraine.
Ukraine did not attack Russia, and were never going to attack Russia.
Ukraine has no intention of ever harming Russia.
Russia has stated that Ukraine has no right to exist, and intends to take the whole country for itself.

Excellent summary

 

[aolstudios]

Israel always has, and always will do what is good for Israel.... it cares not for the toothless UN, it also cares not whether Iran or any of it's terrorist proxies attempt more of these attacks, Israel will deliver retribution at the time of its choosing.

Irans attack last night was an abject failure, Iran and it's allies are only mildly successful when it bombs or kidnaps civilians or military personnel in cowardly attacks in public places.... it presents itself as a serious military entity... take that brave attack on those very dangerous Philippino sailors the other day,... what a courageous attack that was.

Israel could, with a bit of effort, defeat Iran without putting a single boot on Iranian soil if it so desires, but Israel also, does not want to destroy anyone, they just want to live in peace.... but sadly, the militant Islamic world are not interested in peace.... just the annihilation of the nation of Israel and all it's Jewish citizens.

This ^
Every single word.
Thank you

 

[Zeberdi]

Israel also, does not want to destroy anyone, they just want to live in peace....

57 years of oppressive and illegal occupation, apartheid policies, expansionist settlements and violence perpetrated against Palestinians living in the way; now bombing Gaza back into the stone-age, killing 17, 000 Sunni Muslim women and children, destroying mosques, hospitals, schools, bombing refugee camps, pushing 1.1 million people onto the brink of starvation, refusing to allow aid in, killing aid workers, journalists, UN workers, Medicin Sans Frontier staff even babies in incubators - all this is Netanyahu’s way of showing ‘they just want to live in peace”?

Hardly.

Who do you think was behind the murder of Yiksak Rabin, and tried to blow the Oslo Accords out the water? Who has carried out repeated punishment rocket attacks on civilians, illegally held children in detention, carried out torture/punishment beatings and generally made life unbearable for Palestinians in the land they rightly live on? Who do you think armed Hamas to prevent a peace deal ever becoming a reality. Who made a deal with Trump to acquire a third of the West Bank? Swore Palestinians would never be free?

There are extremists and war criminals on all sides in this sorry conflict with innocent civilians as alway caught in the middle so Israel have made their point - bombing the Iranian Embassy was rightly seen as an attack on Iran - Iran have relaliated. Netanyahu now needs to deescalate the situation. agree to a ceasefire in Gaza to allow full aid and medical releif in and agree to a process of peace that will grant freedom to the Palestinian people. It’s in his hands.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Netanyahu is an a basket case and in an ideal world would be consigned to the bin with Putin, Trump etc. The west need to sit on him.

The west need to stop arming him.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

So the UK shot down some drones eh?

WTF? Israel doesn’t need our help. How about defending the people of Ukraine who actually need it?

It’s a disgrace. No military action by the UK in the Middle East will be in my name. None.

I said at the beginning of the Ukraine war that the UK and NATO should have put boots on the ground (although if rumours are correct UK Special Forces are there helping Ukraine). Afterall, this is the defence of Europe. The war could have well have ended by now if NATO hadn't been so cowardly.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Israel, for its part, has not said they want to take over the whole of Palestine.

You mean apart from at least a couple of Israeli government ministers who have stated publically that they want all Palestinians to leave Gaza so Israelis can settle there ( and I would guess there are other minsters who support this views but won't state it in public ) ? Or indeed the Jewish settlers who want all Palestinians to leave the West Bank and are using murder, violence and intimidation to achieve said aim ? Brings a slightly different meaning to the phrase "from the river to the sea".

 

[Triggaaar]

- Israel is threatening to attack Iran - has done for years - Israel is a nuclear power and has on more than one occasion in the past threatened Iran with nuclear strikes - that will almost certainly trigger a worldwide conflict.

Israel threatened to launch nuclear war on Iran - UN envoy

During his UNGA speech, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu asserted that “Iran must face a credible nuclear threat,” a statement the PMO later retracted.

www.jpost.com

In that example, they said "Iran must face a credible nuclear threat”. That in itself is like the US and UK's MAD position regarding Russia et al. We have no intention of nuking Russia or anywhere else, but the threat is there should they use nukes first. Also, Israel responded to the criticism saying they meant to say 'military threat'. While that's clumsy at best and possibly disingenuous, it is black and white different to Russia's threats. Russia has actually threatened to destroy Ireland and UK with a Sarmat nuclear weapon, just for supplying arms to Ukraine, and that's the tip of the Russian rhetoric iceberg.

Russia has made threats of using strategic nuclear weapons but it is a ridiculously hyperbolic response to say these have been against the ‘whole world’ or are a threat of intercontinental nuclear war.

Wrong.

China and Iran, two major powers aligned to Russia and India are also an allies so certainly wouldn’t be included.

They wouldn't be targeted by Russia, but if Russia started a nuclear war with the West, there would obviously be a response, and nowhere would escape nuclear fallout.

Russia may have made nuclear threats but it’s been largely bluster and threats of nuclear strikes if NATO forces attack Russia and are an existential threat to Russia.

No, Russia's threats have not been limited to if NATO forces attack Russia (which I'm sure you know).

The US and UK have the same longstanding threat if Russia attacks the US/Nato with nuclear weapons - it’s call MAD (for a reason)

Yes I know what it is, but the West are not threatening to use nuclear weapons, whereas Russia has been.

It’s laughable that anyone could think Hamas was capable of ‘removing’ Israel ‘entirely’

The fact that they're not capable is not the point. The point is that that is their current stated goal, and they did attack Israel. What exactly did Ukraine do to justify Russia's invasion?

That's not to say that Israel's actions are justified, but you can at least see that Israel have been threatened and attacked, whereas Russia hasn't.

Some here consider that the conflict between Israel and Iran/Palestine is more likely to lead to WW3 than Putin's attack on Ukraine. I disagree. Let's hope we don't find out.

 

[Triggaaar]

You mean apart from at least a couple of Israeli government ministers who have stated publically that they want all Palestinians to leave Gaza so Israelis can settle there ( and I would guess there are other minsters who support this views but won't state it in public ) ? Or indeed the Jewish settlers who want all Palestinians to leave the West Bank and are using murder, violence and intimidation to achieve said aim ? Brings a slightly different meaning to the phrase "from the river to the sea".

It is Russian policy to take over the whole of Ukraine.
I don't think that it's Israel's policy to take over the whole of Palestine (feel free to provide a link if it is).

 

[Zeberdi]

The west need to stop arming him.

He’s made that impossible at the moment unfortunately for Gazans - Israel is now vulnerable in a way it wasn’t a few weeks ago - Attacking an Embassy (which are regarded as sovereign territory) is an attack on the Country to whom it belongs. Iran had every right to respond, when Israel bombed their embassy in Damascus and killing embassy staffers. There has been a seismic shift in the ME and after years of proxy wars between Iran and Israel, the gloves came off last night when Iran responded by firing 300 drones and missiles into Israel. Exactly what Netanyahu wanted IMO.

 

[Zeberdi]

I don't think that it's Israel's policy to take over the whole of Palestine (feel free to provide a link if it is).

Wrong - I have posted numerous information in this thread to this effects with plenty of source material to back it up.

 

[Triggaaar]

Then that’s not Russia threatening to launch a nuclear strike against the whole world is it

What? They've threatened Ireland and the UK among others, and there would obviously be a retaliation if they destroyed the whole of the UK, so of course it's a threat to the world.

- honestly what a ridiculous discussion.

Then stop discussing it

Please stop comparing Russias war on Ukraine with Israel’s war on Gaza/ME - seriously what on earth is the point?

Is someone brings up the likelihood of this conflict starting WW3, it's not surprising that the conflict in Ukraine is also going to be discussed. It's also possible that Russia have had a hand in this conflict as it could help them. If you don't want to discuss it, then don't.

 

[Triggaaar]

Wrong - I have posted numerous information in this thread to this effects with plenty of source material to back it up.

There are over 4,000 posts here, so I'm not going to go through them to find something you claim. If you want to backup your claim, do so. If you don't, then don't.

 

[Triggaaar]

Israel could, with a bit of effort, defeat Iran without putting a single boot on Iranian soil if it so desires, but Israel also, does not want to destroy anyone, they just want to live in peace....

If Israel just wanted to live in peace, they should not occupy any of Palestine. But they do. They should leave.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

It is Russian policy to take over the whole of Ukraine.
I don't think that it's Israel's policy to take over the whole of Palestine (feel free to provide a link if it is).

When I have the time I'll find the BBC report on the statements but here's Reuters to start with :

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-ministers-join-ultranationalist-conference-urging-gaza-resettlement-2024-01-29/

 

[Triggaaar]

When I have the time I'll find the BBC report on the statements but here's Reuters to start with :

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-ministers-join-ultranationalist-conference-urging-gaza-resettlement-2024-01-29/

Thanks, but you've basically posted a link confirming what I said:
"The statement from the firebrand Ben-Gvir clashed with the official government position iterated by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu that Israel does not intend to return a permanent presence to Gaza once the war with Hamas is over."

So yes, there ultranationalists who want to take over Gaza (which is one city, not the whole of Palestine), but the official policy is that Israel is not seeking to take occupy the city. Contrast that with Russia, whose official policy is to take over the whole of Ukraine.

 

[Triggaaar]

There are even more on the Ukraine thread, 690 posts by you alone in fact - so ditto.

Ditto what? I've not asked you to look up something I've posted, so what are you talking about?

Most people that have followed this thread credit me me well researched and pretty balanced information - I don’t really need to back up claims I have repeatedly made before and backed with numerous references nor have I the time to so accept what I say or don’t

Thanks. I'll go with 'don't'.

 

[Triggaaar]

See my post above

Random guy, not official Kremlin policy statements or intent

IMO Putin decides what his ministers and media should and shouldn't say. They make nuclear threats with Putin's backing.
Re 'official Kremlin policy', I think you're mixing up our discussion about their nuclear threats with their policy of making Ukraine part of Russia. I wasn't suggesting that their nuclear threats are part of policy, they are simply making them. But it is their policy to take Ukraine.

Are you reading my replies because I feel I keep having to repeat points I made earlier See my/earlier post, a full blown Middle Eastern conflict would not help Russia IMO

I read your post earlier, and as you highlight here, it is your opinion, not a fact. I'm not sure whether Russia is expecting a full blown ME conflict. or whether they would want it. It may depend on how desperate Putin gets. But I believe they support the current conflict because it takes both attention and resources away from Ukraine.

 

[Zeberdi]

Thanks, but you've basically posted a link confirming what I said:
"The statement from the firebrand Ben-Gvir clashed with the official government position iterated by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu that Israel does not intend to return a permanent presence to Gaza once the war with Hamas is over."

So yes, there ultranationalists who want to take over Gaza (which is one city, not the whole of Palestine), but the official policy is that Israel is not seeking to take occupy the city. Contrast that with Russia, whose official policy is to take over the whole of Ukraine.

Firstly, get your facts right at least -

’Gaza’ the city, is the capital of Gaza the Palestinian enclave/territory in Easter Israel - it is an illegally Occupied Palestinian Territory that was invaded by the Israelis in 1967 - it has half a dozen large towns and cities with a population of over 2 million people. When Israel or any other interested party talks about the war in Gaza, or what happens after wards they are not referring to a City !!

(The West Bank and East Jerusalem form the rest of the OPT but the largest population of Palestinians live in Gaza)

Secondly, while Netanyahu says one thing, he is beholden to his extreme coalition partners that prop up his permiership. Netanyahu himself subscribes to a Greater Israel -

This is the policy of the Lukid Party of which he has been a member and leader for decades

“The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable… therefore, Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty. —Likud Party Platform, 1977”

It’s Time to Confront Israel’s Version of “From the River to the Sea”

Far from being a mere slogan, the phrase captures both the longtime ambitions of the Israeli right and the reality Israel has imposed on Palestine since 1967.

www.thenation.com