Billy the Fish
Technocrat
Please explain what you mean by extra evidence?
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[News] Middle East conflict
- Thread starter Greenbag50
- Start date
Yes, the laughing (mocking) emojis from @aolstudios and @cjd seem to now be commonplace on (what I thought was intended to be) a serious thread.
I do have suspicions that both accounts are being controlled by the same user.
I've not really paid attention to use of emojis, but if I see people using laughing emojis in a way I determine is mocking or similar, then I will act as per my earlier warning.
Again: no apologies/reasons/appeals will be listened to.
Act in good faith if you wish to retain access to this thread, and similar on NSC.
...and I'll add "See if I can stop selected users from being able to use emojis" to my to-do list.
Yes, yes I can.
Greenbag50
Well-known member
- Jun 1, 2016
- 501
- Thread starter
- #3,526
I think that is a very reasonable position.
As the OP, if I didn’t start this thread, someone else would have.
I think to have the freedom to debate these very sensitive geo-political subjects is something we should be proud of being able to do in the UK freely, without state or Government interference or control.
Mindful of some of the countries/ cultures we are discussing, the citizens of these countries may not be afforded this right and are prosecuted for it, without any rule of law in attendance.
We should be thankful we live in such a country where freedom of speech is protected and we should, as a people be grateful we live in such a country where this is possible. Currently.
armchairclubber
Well-known member
Perhaps I can post this again now without the giggling.
Two weeks on. Thousands more dead.
Two weeks on. Thousands more dead.
- Oct 20, 2022
- 6,905
On the contrary, I simply highlighted that there seems to be a distinct lack of evidence for some of the claims. EI is not a ‘Palestinian only’ website in the sense it is aimed at Palestinians, it’s audience is broad, it is a fact finding organisation that tried to provide an objective Palestinian perspective on issues where that perspective is largely ignored - it has been used by major news organisations as a source and has won awards for it’s commitment to human rights.
This is their website
Opinion and analysis
electronicintifada.net
As for other MSM sources - I did not say they should be ‘ignored’ or debunked - I have simply said their access to source material has been largely controlled and provided by the Israeli Government and interviews with inherently biased witnesses... and I also agreed there were probably incidences of sexual violence. The claim made by Israel however that this was a systematic tool of terror perpetrated by Hamas on 7th October may possibly be open to question so needs a full independent inquiry.
I posted links and quotes from Npr and Reuters News agencies, both highly respected in global news media, less hyperbolic or morally outraged in their tone of reporting current affairs than many news sources and both independent news agencies - they said they could not verify all the accounts. I detailed the problematic evidentiary issues raised both by Israel and the NYT and other News outlets too so not just EI..
As I also quoted from the Reuters link above, Israel has said they are not willing to work with the UN commission of inquiry because they say “it is biased” (presumably because they are concurrently investigating Israel for genocide). A UN ‘serious and impartial investigation’ ( that Hamas is calling for) might undermine any systemic rape narratives that can help Israel revitalise demonisation of Hamas as a justification of the war in Gaza - at a time when international resistance to Israel’s destruction of Gaza and the mass indiscriminate killing of thousands of children and women is becoming increasingly problematic for Netanyahu’s leadership and agenda in Gaza.
Because of that potential conflict of interest, the claims Israel is making need to be critically analysed from all sides and any outcome based on a broad range of independent resources.
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sydney
tinky ****in winky
give us a clue...?
sydney
tinky ****in winky
doesn't really follow does it....
- Oct 20, 2022
- 6,905
Yes - exactly this. Very much in line with what Volker Turk, the United Nations high commissioner for human rights has also stated in a press conference in December:
‘Independent investigation needed
Meanwhile, Turk highlighted that Israel itself had not responded to his repeated requests for access to investigate the allegations independently.
"We take the allegations extremely seriously," he said, but "you need to go into quite some detailed examination of whether it's premeditated, whether it was widespread, systematic".
"I'm not in a position to confirm this."
He stressed that for weeks he had "asked the Israeli authorities... to deploy a team, my team, to monitor, document, investigate the issues of the horrific attacks on Israelis".
"I've repeated this call and I hope it will be heard but so far, I haven't received a response."
Even if access is denied, Turk said that "we will find other ways and means to talk to whoever we need to talk to … Atrocious forms of sexual violence need to be thoroughly investigated, and we need to make sure that justice is served," he said.
"That's what we owe the victims."’
UN seeks Israel access for Hamas sexual violence investigation
The UN rights chief voiced deep concern on Wednesday over allegations of sexual violence by Hamas militants during their October 7 attack, calling on Israel to allow his team in to investigate.
www.france24.com
Edit - A far left perspective
How the media lied about beheaded babies to ‘justify’ Israeli war crimes
Western journalists have done it before
socialistworker.co.uk
And a Jewish independent non-profit on information gathering before the IDF subsequently claimed to have evidence of systematic rape
How Biden condemned Hamas for rape before the IDF had evidence it happened
The Israeli military said they have no evidence of rape claims shared by President Joe Biden and Prime Minister Netanyahu.
forward.com
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Tom Hark Preston Park
Will Post For Cash
- Jul 6, 2003
- 72,310
Sorry @Bozza and mods if this besmirches your edict for the thread. But this guy does not post on this thread in the manner of a normal poster on this site. This is something else. Half a dozen links and a thousand word treatise every time he posts? I mean, really? We're clearly being steered in a particular direction by a particular entity. Please feel free to ban me from this thread for pointing out what should be blatantly manipulative red flags. And, to clarify, this is not an 'ad hominem' attack - to use his favourite phrase - on the poster in question, it's an attack on the entity he is posting on behalf ofYes - exactly this. Very much in line with what Volker Turk, the United Nations high commissioner for human rights has also stated in a press conference in December:
‘Independent investigation needed
Meanwhile, Turk highlighted that Israel itself had not responded to his repeated requests for access to investigate the allegations independently.
"We take the allegations extremely seriously," he said, but "you need to go into quite some detailed examination of whether it's premeditated, whether it was widespread, systematic".
"I'm not in a position to confirm this."
He stressed that for weeks he had "asked the Israeli authorities... to deploy a team, my team, to monitor, document, investigate the issues of the horrific attacks on Israelis".
"I've repeated this call and I hope it will be heard but so far, I haven't received a response."
Even if access is denied, Turk said that "we will find other ways and means to talk to whoever we need to talk to … Atrocious forms of sexual violence need to be thoroughly investigated, and we need to make sure that justice is served," he said.
"That's what we owe the victims."’
UN seeks Israel access for Hamas sexual violence investigation
The UN rights chief voiced deep concern on Wednesday over allegations of sexual violence by Hamas militants during their October 7 attack, calling on Israel to allow his team in to investigate.
Edit - A far left perspective
How the media lied about beheaded babies to ‘justify’ Israeli war crimes
Western journalists have done it before
And a Jewish independent non-profit on information gathering before the IDF subsequently claimed to have evidence of systematic rape
How Biden condemned Hamas for rape before the IDF had evidence it happened
The Israeli military said they have no evidence of rape claims shared by President Joe Biden and Prime Minister Netanyahu.
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aolstudios
Well-known member
You're far from alone in this observation, @Tom Hark Preston Park
You mean he gives his opinion and provides sources to back it up?
Is that worse than the laughing emojis favoured by other posters?
To be honest, I prefer a post backed up by evidence to spurious claims based on nothing but bias, half-truth and hearsay.
pocketseagull
Well-known member
- Dec 29, 2014
- 1,360
It's been very notable that throughout this thread those who support Israel's actions mostly haven't really brought much in constructive arguments.
We've had people trying to have the thread shut down, constant trolling by emojis and now persistent personal attacks. I know the world is a bit dumbed down now but seriously criticising someone who backs up their arguments as being a red flag is unreal.
We've had people trying to have the thread shut down, constant trolling by emojis and now persistent personal attacks. I know the world is a bit dumbed down now but seriously criticising someone who backs up their arguments as being a red flag is unreal.
Tom Hark Preston Park
Will Post For Cash
- Jul 6, 2003
- 72,310
Maybe, just maybe, those who support Israel's actions are as pissed off as Israel is with the cruel slaughter of innocents on October 7th. Which, lest we forget, is the worst attack on Jewish people since the Holocaust. Hamas knew exactly how Israel would respond to such inhuman savagery. And just like pre-October 7th they continue to conduct their cowardly war by using women and kids as human shields
- Oct 20, 2022
- 6,905
What are you accusing me of? Working for a terrorist organisation? And yes, of course it is an ad hominem attack to falsely accuse someone on NSC of supporting some Machiavellian ’entity’ in order to silence the views of someone you disagree with- there is no ‘entity’ and you know it.
And by the way your comments have ONLY been liked by the same posters that have posted strong pro-Israel positions, ignored moderate debate, ignored facts, accused others of anti-semitism, posted Islamophobic sentiments and trolled the thread through a number of means and made repeated personal attacks on others to the point being threatened with bans— nice company you keep.
You are very much in a minority, not just in the UK but in the World, in giving your completely unbridled support to how Israel is conducting its war on Hamas - even the US, Israel’s greatest ally, has been working for weeks behind the scenes to put pressure on Israel to make more effort to avoid civilian casualties:
Blinken steps up call for Israel to spare civilians in strongest remarks yet - BBC News
The top diplomat delivers the strongest US remarks yet in Israel on protecting Palestinian civilians.
www.bbc.com
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Personally, I don't think we should support either 'side' like it's a football match. This conflict has killed over 20,000 innocent civilians from Israel and Palestine. I believe that Hamas and the Israeli authorities are both responsible for this atrocity and should be condemned.
armchairclubber
Well-known member
For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it's blown up in our faces - The Times of Israel
The premier's policy of treating the terror group as a partner, at the expense of Abbas and Palestinian statehood, has resulted in wounds that will take Israel years to heal from
www.timesofisrael.com
Have you read this article? You can correct me if I'm wrong but I think it's written by a Jewish journalist born and living in Israel for a Jewish paper.
I'd say Netenyahu has shot himself in the foot, whatever Hamas actions.
And now he conveniently wants the Palestinians to pay for it.
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- Oct 20, 2022
- 6,905
So do most people on this thread including me - Nobody here is supporting Hamas just to be clear or working for any organisation that does ( I work for a conservation organisation that carries out scientific surveys to track the impacts of climate change - despite what THPP would have people believe) - the people that need our support are the innocent civilians getting caught up in the war - those that died on 7/10, the families of the hostages still held in Gaza, the innocent civilians that have died in Lebanon, Syria and the West Bank refugee camps; the thousands of Gazans who have died and the million Gazans at immediate risk of starvation.
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