[News] Middle East conflict

[sydney]

Personally, I don't think we should support either 'side' like it's a football match. This conflict has killed over 20,000 innocent civilians from Israel and Palestine. I believe that Hamas and the Israeli authorities are both responsible for this atrocity and should be condemned.

so much deeper than this mate ....so deep its an abomination of contemporary , basic , human rights .....it's just not right. i'll go out on a limb and expect to get hammered but Ukraine is the same scenario .....it's a land grab.

 

[Billy the Fish]

It's been very notable that throughout this thread those who support Israel's actions mostly haven't really brought much in constructive arguments.

I don't particularly support Israel's actions. How could anyone possibly provide a constructive argument to support killing civilians and bombing cities to buggery
However, it's possible at the same time to recognise that Hamas must be eliminated after what they did, that means a ground war which will inevitably be messy.
I'd very much like to see more humanitarian support from Isreal. The whole situation is a terrible mess of cause and effect and has been for decades.

You mean he gives his opinion and provides sources to back it up?

It's just confirmation bias (on an industrial scale) that you're willing to overlook because you broadly agree with the narrative.
I've also provided sources which were instantly dismissed as propaganda.

There's something about his style of posting that's completely off. That whole series of posts yesterday and today about the Hamas sexual violence was incredibly manipulative in way that I don't see from others (who are the supposed "other side") like, for instance, yourself @Bakero or @wellquickwoody.

 

[armchairclubber]

I don't particularly support Israel's actions. How could anyone possibly provide a constructive argument to support killing civilians and bombing cities to buggery
However, it's possible at the same time to recognise that Hamas must be eliminated after what they did, that means a ground war which will inevitably be messy.
I'd very much like to see more humanitarian support from Isreal. The whole situation is a terrible mess of cause and effect and has been for decades.

I take it you're all for Netenyahu to be eliminated too then, after all Hamas is his baby.

 

[Billy the Fish]

I take it you're all for Netenyahu to be eliminated too then.

At the ballot box, yes. Do they have that option in Gaza?

 

[armchairclubber]

At the ballot box, yes. Do they have that option in Gaza?

No, they don't even have the option to die in tens of thousands

 

[aolstudios]

I don't particularly support Israel's actions. How could anyone possibly provide a constructive argument to support killing civilians and bombing cities to buggery
However, it's possible at the same time to recognise that Hamas must be eliminated after what they did, that means a ground war which will inevitably be messy.
I'd very much like to see more humanitarian support from Isreal. The whole situation is a terrible mess of cause and effect and has been for decades.

It's just confirmation bias (on an industrial scale) that you're willing to overlook because you broadly agree with the narrative.
I've also provided sources which were instantly dismissed as propaganda.

There's something about his style of posting that's completely off. That whole series of posts yesterday and today about the Hamas sexual violence was incredibly manipulative in way that I don't see from others (who are the supposed "other side") like, for instance, yourself @Bakero or @wellquickwoody.

This ^

 

[aolstudios]

At the ballot box, yes. Do they have that option in Gaza?

Well, exactly

 

[BadFish]

It's been very notable that throughout this thread those who support Israel's actions mostly haven't really brought much in constructive arguments.
We've had people trying to have the thread shut down, constant trolling by emojis and now persistent personal attacks. I know the world is a bit dumbed down now but seriously criticising someone who backs up their arguments as being a red flag is unreal.

it's just another attempt at silencing a moderate and balanced evaluation of what is going on over there. If you can't argue the points being made then attack the poster with some weird claim that they are working for some shadowy group (with no evidence or detail to back up such a claim).

I guess such deep set opinions and cheering for ones side are all part of the problem of this conflict.

 

[Zeberdi]

There's something about his style of posting that's completely off. That whole series of posts yesterday and today about the Hamas sexual violence was incredibly manipulative in way that I don't see from others (who are the supposed "other side") like, for instance, yourself @Bakero or @wellquickwoody.

My style of posting is I hope informative and backed up by a broad range of resources and above all, aim always to show respect to those who do not share a similar perspective on this war which for me is to focus on the suffering of innocent civilians and maintaining an analytical open-minded approach to the news...

As far as the posts yesterday- I urge you to go back and read them again and also the comment I posted by the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights who, as I have done, said there needs to be a serious and thorough investigation to establish whether Hamas premeditated a systematic sexual abuse attack as part of their terror tactics on October 7 or whether the evidence points to isolated and ‘off-mission’ attacks. There is a big difference. Hamas can claim deniability as an organisation for the latter and put the blame on a few rogue militants. Israel can demonise Hamas as an organisation for the former, which serves to reinvigorate moral support from the international community for their war in Gaza - both have a vested interest in the outcome of the UN commission’s investigation into these potential war crimes.

Also I think it important to see any investigation into these attacks in the context of the reality of journalism. The press is routinely censored in conflict zones and has been especially by Israel and Hamas for years, journalists restricted and MSM outlets even manipulated by increasingly sophisticated propaganda methods that use social media and in particular AI …

Foreign journalists while being allowed to move freely in Israel are under constant surveillance by drones and security cameras and not allowed in Gaza at all unless under strict control by the IDF ( nor are Israeli journalists) - Palestinian journalists are systematically subject to violence in Israel as well as in Gaza and the West Bank and any media reports that Israel judges to undermine ‘Israeli national security‘ are shut down - this could mean anyone providing a Palestinian or Muslim perspective or a foreign journalist questioning Israel’s war efforts - under new laws they could lose complete access to coverage of the war or events on the ground in Israel - no journalist ever wants to risk loss of access - that is their job gone if they do …there are accusations that journalists are even being deliberately targeted by the IDF and Hamas in Gaza with hundreds killed but that’s an issue for a later time.

Israel: government to shut down critical media alleged to ‘undermine national security’

The Israeli government has approved a new regulation that will shut news channels which ‘damage national security’. The International Federation of Journalists (IFJ) urges Israel to review its decision in the name of media pluralism and the public’s right to know.

www.nuj.org.uk

It is not exactly a climate that facilitates independent scrutiny, verification of events or unbiased coverage of the war is it?

ttps://www.vox.com/23972456/journalists-killed-gaza-israel-press-freedom

If anyone is being manipulated around what is happening in this war, it is certainly not me doing the manipulating

 

[GT49er]

so much deeper than this mate ....so deep its an abomination of contemporary , basic , human rights .....it's just not right. i'll go out on a limb and expect to get hammered but Ukraine is the same scenario .....it's a land grab.

So much deeper? No - the OP's called it about right. Both sides are in the wrong, both sides are responsible for the slaughter and both sides are worthy of condemnation. There are no good guys in this.

 

[Zeberdi]

So much deeper? No - the OP's called it about right. Both sides are in the wrong, both sides are responsible for the slaughter and both sides are worthy of condemnation. There are no good guys in this.

There are not two sides in this war, it’s multi-faceted and there are ‘good guys’ in this - it is the innocent civilians ie woman, children, babies getting caught up in between the not ‘good guys‘ on all sides. The thousands getting slaughtered and losing their homes and infrastructure and under threat of removal from Gaza with no right of return or being killed in refugee camps in the West Bank.

 

[GT49er]

There are not two sides in this war, it’s multi-faceted and there are ‘good guys’ in this - it is the innocent civilians ie woman, children, babies getting caught up in between the not ‘good guys‘ on all sides. The thousands getting slaughtered and losing their homes and infrastructure and under threat of removal from Gaza with no right of return or being killed in refugee camps in the West Bank.

Not having that. There are innocent victims (many of whom voted for the wrong leaders, but that's not a crime). But no good guys.

There are always innocent victims in any war, but they are not a 'side'.

 

[Zeberdi]

Not having that. There are innocent victims (many of whom voted for the wrong leaders, but that's not a crime). But no good guys.

How is a 3 year old kid or new born baby not a ‘good guy’? I honestly don’t understand your distinction between ‘good guys’ and victims - there are many good people in both Israel and Gaza - I happen to know some of them.

EDIT You’ve now edited your post to add: ‘“There are always innocent victims in any war, but they are not a ‘side‘” That changes my response too - I didn’t say victims were a ‘side’ - I said the war was multi faceted and there are good people ‘here’ - I was responding to you unedited sentence that said: ‘There are no good people here’. Clearly a miscommunication.

It raises another point (not directed at you!) why reducing the war narrative down to ’two sides’ like a football match between the ideologies of Hamas and the Israeli Government, doesn’t allow a discussion that gives due credence to the 2 million people caught in the middle at risk of genocide by starvation or by munition or the nuances of radicalisms when groups are both victimising each other. Too many people say, “oh, I can’t be bothered, they are both as bad as each other’ or ‘I am neither for nor against, there’s ‘bad on both sides’ or ‘what’s the point of the debate, it will never be resolved between Jews and Muslims’ but that is not the end of the discussion. Humanitarian concern for the innocent victims of conflict should be areligious and apolitical - it shouldn’t be thrown out with the bath water imo..

 

[GT49er]

‘Uh? How is a 3 year old kid or new born baby not a ‘good guy’? I honestly don’t understand your distinction between ‘good guys’ and victims - there are many good people in both Israel and Gaza - I happen to know some of them.

EDIT You just edited your post to add ‘victims aren’t a side‘

I didn’t say they were - I said the war was multi faceted and there are good people ‘here’ - I was responding to your comment that there were no ‘good people here’ - so no, victims aren’t a ‘side’ but I didn’t say they were, just they are caught between the people that are ‘not good’ .

There are victims. Tragically, whenever there is a war. They are collateral damage - not part of one side or the other.

Just victims. Nothing more, nothing less. Not good guys, not bad guys. Just collateral damage, that's all. Do you seriously think that WWII was not a case of good version Nazi evil? Innocent Brits, including babies and children, were killed. So were German babies and children. All victims. Just victims. Nothing more. It's called war - those responsible for it are guilty.

There is no 'good side' in Gaza (unlike, say, in Ukraine). Just two lots of bad guys, intent on murder if they think it will further their cause.

 

[wellquickwoody]

Maybe, just maybe, those who support Israel's actions are as pissed off as Israel is with the cruel slaughter of innocents on October 7th. Which, lest we forget, is the worst attack on Jewish people since the Holocaust. Hamas knew exactly how Israel would respond to such inhuman savagery. And just like pre-October 7th they continue to conduct their cowardly war by using women and kids as human shields

Hamas are arses, we all know that. But the excuse of the worst attack on Israel since the Holocaust pales into insignificance when compared to the 20 odd thousand that Israel have killed in response. Also, it seems those calling Zeberdi into question are those invested into the Israeli/Jewish point of view, even if they have not declared their interest. Whilst I, and others, can criticise both Hamas and Israel, it seems those calling Zeberdi into question are only able to criticise Hamas (rightly so) and those who call Israels actions into question, they are not willing to criticise Israel in any way. I wonder why?

 

[GT49er]

There are not two sides in this war, it’s multi-faceted and there are ‘good guys’ in this - it is the innocent civilians ie woman, children, babies getting caught up in between the not ‘good guys‘ on all sides. The thousands getting slaughtered and losing their homes and infrastructure and under threat of removal from Gaza with no right of return or being killed in refugee camps in the West Bank.

Yes there are. One's trying to kill all the others (it's in their constitution) and the other has just been killing quietly for decades, expanding its illegal territories. Shit vs. shit. All the rest are victims; not protagonists.

 

[armchairclubber]

Yes there are. One's trying to kill all the others (it's in their constitution) and the other has just been killing quietly for decades, expanding its illegal territories. Shit vs. shit. All the rest are victims; not protagonists.

Come on, there quite obviously are not only two sides in this conflict. Netenyahu has been playing Hamas against the Palestinians for years. And now he's got what he wanted. An opportunity to put to an end for good any chance of a Palestinian State.

I shouldn't feel the need to post this again, but unfortunately

For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it's blown up in our faces - The Times of Israel

The premier's policy of treating the terror group as a partner, at the expense of Abbas and Palestinian statehood, has resulted in wounds that will take Israel years to heal from

www.timesofisrael.com

 

[Zeberdi]

Do you seriously think that WWII was not a case of good version Nazi evil? Innocent Brits, including babies and children, were killed. So were German babies and children. All victims. Just victims. Nothing more. It's called war - those responsible for it are guilty.

Come on, there quite obviously are not only two sides in this conflict. Netenyahu has been playing Hamas against the Palestinians for years. And now he's got what he wanted. An opportunity to put an end for good to any chance of a Palestinian State.

I shouldn't feel the need to post this again, but unfortunately

For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it's blown up in our faces - The Times of Israel

The premier's policy of treating the terror group as a partner, at the expense of Abbas and Palestinian statehood, has resulted in wounds that will take Israel years to heal from

www.timesofisrael.com

Just for clarification- Hamas are Palestinian - but yes, as distinct from ‘the Palestinian’s’. Netanyahu has been bolstering Hamas against the pro-West Palestinian Authority (PA) in the West Bank (another ‘side’ in the equation ) for years as you say, to stop the PA from becoming too powerful and Hamas has been thus enabled by Bibi’s support to suppress Palestinian civilians in Gaza too along with any other power seeking entity that should challenge Hamas’s political and paramilitary supremacy in Gaza. Neither Bibi nor Hamas have ever supported a two-state solution because they don’t recognise each other’s right to Statehood. That made them uneasy bedfellows with a shared but mutually exclusive aim... The PA now, because of the treatment of Palestinians in this war on Hamas, are most certainly more than a little lukewarm to Israel having previously worked hand in pocket with the IDF to stifle resistance by Palestinian protesters to the Occupation and Settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem - However, the post-PLO administration of the Occupied Territories, the PA, does still recognise a two state solution (as a condition of the Oslo Accords).

But, clarification aside, I totally agree - the Hamas-Israel war as it is now being conducted, looks very much like Israel could be intending to re-occupy Gaza with a permanent military presence and seek to annex it by force. It is unlikely they will get away with that level of audacity though (unless Trump wins the US Election.and re-implements his Peace Plan that not only does not recognise a two state solution but hands 30% of the Occupied West Bank to Israel).)

(Ps. I posted this article several times back in October - I think it quite shocked people.)

 

[armchairclubber]

Thanks for your insight and clarification @Zeberdi

Most concerning is that not only is it looking like Israel is intending to re-occupy Gaza with military presence, but flatten the whole territory first.

With Netenyahu talking of his war and aggression taking "many more months," I'm not sure who or what can survive for any possible two state solution or other, whether it be Palestinians or their infrastructure.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

More evidence of the Israeli government's real plan :

"Israel's far-right finance minister Bezalel Smotrich called for Palestinians to leave Gaza and make way for Israelis who could "make the desert bloom"."

From the BBC - https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67855117