[Politics] May 2021 local elections and Hartlepool by-election

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

Must admit the Tories really need to consider whether they need dodgy donors and mystery funded think tanks snapping at their heels anymore

Few extra flags and a naval frigate doin a couple of laps round Fred Barclay's pad in the Channel and its all sorted

Rule Britainnia, Vote Tory

What a strange post.

Perhaps you should be asking what only 6% of those eligible to vote, voted Labour in Hartlepool?

 

[Guinness Boy]

And there is a lot of the problem. That attitude is far from uncommon among the self-proclaimed moral majority - "I am right and you are stupid" - and it's not a vote-winner.

Labour's big problem is that they have lost their core vote. Twenty and thirty years ago there were people in Burnley would have poked their eyes out rather than vote Conservative. (Hence the BNP votes that some of your members still bang on about. The Labour party had successive mayors who committed gross indecency in a park at half term, who put the nicest council houses aside for their own special friends, and who put their parents on the electoral roll without them ever having lived in this country) and there were no Liberal council candidates. BNP was mostly a protest vote.)

And yet now Burnley has a Tory MP, for the first time in this century or the last. The "working classes" as a whole are basically conservative with a small c. They want to be richer - who doesn't? - but they don't want massive upheavals in society. The absolute article of faith that existed for so long, that the Tories are against them and Labour are for them, has gone. I'm not saying there is necessarily any strong feeling that the Tories are for them, but there is certainly a strong feeling that Labour is not for them.

For me politics has completely changed from a fairly simple choice between the free market and socialism, either hard or watered down to all kinds of other stuff. People are now divided on their socially liberal tolerances and identity politics as well as financially - in fact more than financially. Brexit is mostly to blame but not solely. The country was far less divided both under Blair AND under Cameron/Clegg.

It really took Farage to come along and basically threaten to split the Tories forever if they didn't listen to the Euro Sceptics. But he was helped in the perfect storm of identity politics caused mainly by social media. Social Media's manipulation by shady actors such as the Russians, Chinese and many on the Alt Right, as well as the prevalence of some hysterical (ok I'll use the word) "woke" youngsters really dug that divide in. Now we vote according to who we think we are and not what we believe in (see the Bear Pit where two regulars who claim they hate the Tories are no doubt delighting in Labour's defeat, because the enemy of my enemy is my friend).

There's lots of other associated shite with the above too - veganism, racism, "shaming", "cancelling" and so on and so on. All identity politics when it comes down to it.

For Labour to become relevant again they really need to do four things:

1) Wait for things to go badly again for the Working Classes. (if they don't and Brexit helps them and the country gets back to normal then the Tories will be in for another generation)
2) If they do go badly, offer real solutions rather than telling people they voted wrongly.
3) Make a "deal with the devil" with the SNP
4) In areas where they are in control of councils or have a big say, try and bolster their new type of voter by focussing on education and regeneration.

Otherwise they're Donald Ducked.

 

[Randy McNob]

This.

It's sheer arrogance, and ignorance, for some Remain Labour/Green/LibDem voters in Sussex, Islinton or Hackney, to deem anyone in Burnley or Hartlepool who has a different view to theirs as thick or a racist.

People saw their communities transformed in a few short years, without a genuine say, they felt disenfranchised as the chattering and ruling classes (Tory, Labour and LibDem) in the major cities decided their fate.

Exemplified by Brown labelliing (behind her back) the woman who asked a perfectly reasonable question a bigot, similarly a snide Thornberry tweeting a photo of a home with St George's flags and a van.

It's little wonder there was a backlash.

what you're doing is highlighting stories which have been blown up by the bias media. People don't care about Tory corruption but do remember Ed Miliband coiuldn't eat a bacon sandwich or that Diane Abbot can't add up sticks in the memory but nothing is made of most of the current crop of Tories who are boneheadedly stupid, even Nadine Dories stated that they created 180,000 jobs for 93,000 inhabitants. David Davis is dangerously stupid, Dominic Raab didn't even know how important Dover - Caliais was, It's an extremely unlevel playing field

 

[cunning fergus]

For me politics has completely changed from a fairly simple choice between the free market and socialism, either hard or watered down to all kinds of other stuff. People are now divided on their socially liberal tolerances and identity politics as well as financially - in fact more than financially. Brexit is mostly to blame but not solely. The country was far less divided both under Blair AND under Cameron/Clegg.

It really took Farage to come along and basically threaten to split the Tories forever if they didn't listen to the Euro Sceptics. But he was helped in the perfect storm of identity politics caused mainly by social media. Social Media's manipulation by shady actors such as the Russians, Chinese and many on the Alt Right, as well as the prevalence of some hysterical (ok I'll use the word) "woke" youngsters really dug that divide in. Now we vote according to who we think we are and not what we believe in (see the Bear Pit where two regulars who claim they hate the Tories are no doubt delighting in Labour's defeat, because the enemy of my enemy is my friend).

There's lots of other associated shite with the above too - veganism, racism, "shaming", "cancelling" and so on and so on. All identity politics when it comes down to it.

For Labour to become relevant again they really need to do four things:

1) Wait for things to go badly again for the Working Classes. (if they don't and Brexit helps them and the country gets back to normal then the Tories will be in for another generation)
2) If they do go badly, offer real solutions rather than telling people they voted wrongly.
3) Make a "deal with the devil" with the SNP
4) In areas where they are in control of councils or have a big say, try and bolster their new type of voter by focussing on education and regeneration.

Otherwise they're Donald Ducked.

What a load of horse shit.

Item 1) is not something to do.......what you really mean is talk down the advantages of Brexit as much as possible. This strategy is already in play amongst many in Labour, however it’s not working. It stinks of treachery and not accepting the result of the referendum and only appeals to those in denial about Brexit.
Item 2) is moving much closer to the EU, see comments to Item 1.
Item 3) Miliband did that, it did not work for England and also stinks of treachery.
Item 4) what is the new type of voter......16 -18 year olds and immigrants presumably.........stinks of desperation.

You are reinventing history too, there has been a long held antipathy to the European project from the outset, Kinnock would have pulled the U.K. out has he won either of his elections.

The EU has long been popular with the established political classes though, only when there were EU elections could the electorate have any say on it, and that say was overwhelmingly for an anti EU party.

This sentiment could not be bought to bear from the 90s onwards because it was hidden by the main political parties, but that did not mean the electorate didn’t care.

Farage did split the Tories on Europe just as it splits Labour now........it’s not a new split it’s just been hidden better by Labour. It’s not now, and it’s why Labour and many of it’s supporters absolutely stink of treachery.

Stinkers, the lot of ‘em.

 

[Eeyore]

What a load of horse shit.

Item 1) is not something to do.......what you really mean is talk down the advantages of Brexit as much as possible. This strategy is already in play amongst many in Labour, however it’s not working. It stinks of treachery and not accepting the result of the referendum and only appeals to those in denial about Brexit.
Item 2) is moving much closer to the EU, see comments to Item 1.
Item 3) Miliband did that, it did not work for England and also stinks of treachery.
Item 4) what is the new type of voter......16 -18 year olds and immigrants presumably.........stinks of desperation.

You are reinventing history too, there has been a long held antipathy to the European project from the outset, Kinnock would have pulled the U.K. out has he won either of his elections.

The EU has long been popular with the established political classes though, only when there were EU elections could the electorate have any say on it, and that say was overwhelmingly for an anti EU party.

This sentiment could not be bought to bear from the 90s onwards because it was hidden by the main political parties, but that did not mean the electorate didn’t care.

Farage did split the Tories on Europe just as it splits Labour now........it’s not a new split it’s just been hidden better by Labour. It’s not now, and it’s why Labour and many of it’s supporters absolutely stink of treachery.

Stinkers, the lot of ‘em.

What is your definition of treachery in this context ?

 

[jakarta]

what you're doing is highlighting stories which have been blown up by the bias media. People don't care about Tory corruption but do remember Ed Miliband coiuldn't eat a bacon sandwich or that Diane Abbot can't add up sticks in the memory but nothing is made of most of the current crop of Tories who are boneheadedly stupid, even Nadine Dories stated that they created 180,000 jobs for 93,000 inhabitants. David Davis is dangerously stupid, Dominic Raab didn't even know how important Dover - Caliais was, It's an extremely unlevel playing field

Thanks for explaining, perhaps you might care to go to Hartlepool and tell the voters it was the bias media wot won it?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Cooperation between parties in some seats has worked. Labour didn't stand in 6 areas, so the Tories were defeated.

[tweet]1390673221142433799[/tweet]

 

[Hugo Rune]

For me politics has completely changed from a fairly simple choice between the free market and socialism, either hard or watered down to all kinds of other stuff. People are now divided on their socially liberal tolerances and identity politics as well as financially - in fact more than financially. Brexit is mostly to blame but not solely. The country was far less divided both under Blair AND under Cameron/Clegg.

It really took Farage to come along and basically threaten to split the Tories forever if they didn't listen to the Euro Sceptics. But he was helped in the perfect storm of identity politics caused mainly by social media. Social Media's manipulation by shady actors such as the Russians, Chinese and many on the Alt Right, as well as the prevalence of some hysterical (ok I'll use the word) "woke" youngsters really dug that divide in. Now we vote according to who we think we are and not what we believe in (see the Bear Pit where two regulars who claim they hate the Tories are no doubt delighting in Labour's defeat, because the enemy of my enemy is my friend).

There's lots of other associated shite with the above too - veganism, racism, "shaming", "cancelling" and so on and so on. All identity politics when it comes down to it.

For Labour to become relevant again they really need to do four things:

1) Wait for things to go badly again for the Working Classes. (if they don't and Brexit helps them and the country gets back to normal then the Tories will be in for another generation)
2) If they do go badly, offer real solutions rather than telling people they voted wrongly.
3) Make a "deal with the devil" with the SNP
4) In areas where they are in control of councils or have a big say, try and bolster their new type of voter by focusing on education and regeneration.

Otherwise they're Donald Ducked.

Labour has two types of core supporter based on the elements you have outlined. They are so far apart that they need something as radical and revolutionary as Brexit was to bring them together again. The only thing I can think of is further devolution and perhaps a referendum on the monarchy and any other unelected institution such as the house of lords. I think it could be the time to cast off Scotland and Northern Ireland for good.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

what you're doing is highlighting stories which have been blown up by the bias media. People don't care about Tory corruption but do remember Ed Miliband coiuldn't eat a bacon sandwich or that Diane Abbot can't add up sticks in the memory but nothing is made of most of the current crop of Tories who are boneheadedly stupid, even Nadine Dories stated that they created 180,000 jobs for 93,000 inhabitants. David Davis is dangerously stupid, Dominic Raab didn't even know how important Dover - Caliais was, It's an extremely unlevel playing field

That old chestnut. It’s quite breathtaking arrogance but keep believing it and never see another non Tory Government.

 

[The Antikythera Mechanism]

I can't hear myself think with all this gnashing of teeth going on

 

[Weststander]

what you're doing is highlighting stories which have been blown up by the bias media. People don't care about Tory corruption but do remember Ed Miliband coiuldn't eat a bacon sandwich or that Diane Abbot can't add up sticks in the memory but nothing is made of most of the current crop of Tories who are boneheadedly stupid, even Nadine Dories stated that they created 180,000 jobs for 93,000 inhabitants. David Davis is dangerously stupid, Dominic Raab didn't even know how important Dover - Caliais was, It's an extremely unlevel playing field

Whataboutery. An obsession with Tories and the Daily Mail.

The Independent, Guardian, Mirror, C4 News, Sky News and Kuennssssberg have been obsessively pursuing the Tories since Brexit became a real possibility.

A narrative that the majority ignore, as they do DM or Murdoch.

People in this nation see through propaganda from both sides of the media.

 

[Chicken Run]

For me politics has completely changed from a fairly simple choice between the free market and socialism, either hard or watered down to all kinds of other stuff. People are now divided on their socially liberal tolerances and identity politics as well as financially - in fact more than financially. Brexit is mostly to blame but not solely. The country was far less divided both under Blair AND under Cameron/Clegg.

It really took Farage to come along and basically threaten to split the Tories forever if they didn't listen to the Euro Sceptics. But he was helped in the perfect storm of identity politics caused mainly by social media. Social Media's manipulation by shady actors such as the Russians, Chinese and many on the Alt Right, as well as the prevalence of some hysterical (ok I'll use the word) "woke" youngsters really dug that divide in. Now we vote according to who we think we are and not what we believe in (see the Bear Pit where two regulars who claim they hate the Tories are no doubt delighting in Labour's defeat, because the enemy of my enemy is my friend).

There's lots of other associated shite with the above too - veganism, racism, "shaming", "cancelling" and so on and so on. All identity politics when it comes down to it.

For Labour to become relevant again they really need to do four things:

1) Wait for things to go badly again for the Working Classes. (if they don't and Brexit helps them and the country gets back to normal then the Tories will be in for another generation)
2) If they do go badly, offer real solutions rather than telling people they voted wrongly.
3) Make a "deal with the devil" with the SNP
4) In areas where they are in control of councils or have a big say, try and bolster their new type of voter by focussing on education and regeneration.

Otherwise they're Donald Ducked.

Good post [emoji106]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[beorhthelm]

what you're doing is highlighting stories which have been blown up by the bias media. People don't care about Tory corruption but do remember Ed Miliband coiuldn't eat a bacon sandwich or that Diane Abbot can't add up sticks in the memory but nothing is made of most of the current crop of Tories who are boneheadedly stupid, even Nadine Dories stated that they created 180,000 jobs for 93,000 inhabitants. David Davis is dangerously stupid, Dominic Raab didn't even know how important Dover - Caliais was, It's an extremely unlevel playing field

no one cares about Miliband's bacon sandwich or Abbots maths. its something to poke a bit of fun at. its not vote loser among core constituents, actual policies are going to trounce on frivolous memes. however what Brown and Thornberry said those year ago signalled to a large constituency that politicans of the left weren't interested in their concerns. and that signal has been perpetuated for the last 4-5 years.

 

[Lyndhurst 14]

There's a lot of surprise that a solid Labour seat like Hartlepool swung to the Tories. The same thing happened in the 2016 election in the States when a lot of the Rust Belt States which Hilary Clinton had expected to win voted for Trump.

If you take people for granted for long enough eventually they wave two fingers at you. That's part of what happened in Hartlepool. If the right Labour Party comes along they may switch back, but Labour must realise it cannot automatically assume that 'Red Wall' constituencies will carry on voting them in regardless. They have to earn it and start treating them with a bit more respect than they have done.

 

[Weststander]

For me politics has completely changed from a fairly simple choice between the free market and socialism, either hard or watered down to all kinds of other stuff. People are now divided on their socially liberal tolerances and identity politics as well as financially - in fact more than financially. Brexit is mostly to blame but not solely. The country was far less divided both under Blair AND under Cameron/Clegg.

It really took Farage to come along and basically threaten to split the Tories forever if they didn't listen to the Euro Sceptics. But he was helped in the perfect storm of identity politics caused mainly by social media. Social Media's manipulation by shady actors such as the Russians, Chinese and many on the Alt Right, as well as the prevalence of some hysterical (ok I'll use the word) "woke" youngsters really dug that divide in. Now we vote according to who we think we are and not what we believe in (see the Bear Pit where two regulars who claim they hate the Tories are no doubt delighting in Labour's defeat, because the enemy of my enemy is my friend).

There's lots of other associated shite with the above too - veganism, racism, "shaming", "cancelling" and so on and so on. All identity politics when it comes down to it.

For Labour to become relevant again they really need to do four things:

1) Wait for things to go badly again for the Working Classes. (if they don't and Brexit helps them and the country gets back to normal then the Tories will be in for another generation)
2) If they do go badly, offer real solutions rather than telling people they voted wrongly.
3) Make a "deal with the devil" with the SNP
4) In areas where they are in control of councils or have a big say, try and bolster their new type of voter by focussing on education and regeneration.

Otherwise they're Donald Ducked.

Agree with all points.

The funny thing is, division and hate is all relative.

I’d bet that most Tory haters here, just a few years ago hated Rudd, Cameron, Grieve, Soubry, and going back further Major, Heseltine and Clarke. I worked with, went to school/uni with people who saw anyone right of Kinnock as “Tory Scum”. More often than not, simply copying their Dad’s view of the world. People posted in that manner on NSC in political/election threads, pre-Brexit era.

Now Boris is neatly and lazily lumped in with alt-right nationalists such as Trump, Putin and Erdogan, spoken of in those terms. The latter two wage illegal wars, have opponents jailed, lie about COVID deaths by 100,000’s, censor COVID stats, organise murders overseas, sham elections see these dictators have a job for life.

No shades of grey, never seeing any good in politicians just because they’re in the ‘wrong’ party.

Thankfully, most people in this country appear to be more rational.

 

[Weststander]

no one cares about Miliband's bacon sandwich or Abbots maths. its something to poke a bit of fun at. its not vote loser among core constituents, actual policies are going to trounce on frivolous memes. however what Brown and Thornberry said those year ago signalled to a large constituency that politicans of the left weren't interested in their concerns. and that signal has been perpetuated for the last 4-5 years.

Multi millionaire Thornberry living in an upmarket part of London, mocked a normal household in Medway.

That one moment, said it all.

A disconnect of epic proportions from any elected official, not least from a purportedly socialist.

 

[pastafarian]

Crikey, you’re well known for scratching around for an argument but that takes the biscuit!

I wasnt scratching around for an argument. I was simply pointing out your error.

 

[Butch Willykins]

Really?

empty spots on shelves is a common sight here, Noones hungry, but the choices are down and prices are up . . . at work we have huge issues with supplies of materials. and big delays in deliveries. I've also had issues personally with purchases, all from EU countries, be it scooter parts, cclothes, a welder . . .

Covid has covered up a lot . . . . as we all get stebbed and released back into the wild, maybe you'll notice.

I agree with yur last statement . . .many people are daft enough to think like that.

I disagree. I live in Shoreham like you. We must shop in different supermarkets because I don't see empty shelves. Material supply is a huge global issue and in the vast majority of cases absolutely bugger all to do with Brexit. My colleagues in the EU are suffering long lead times too. I bring a couple of million quids worth of goods over the UK/EU border every month with literally no issues. The only brexit related delays in my business are due to customs clearance procedures getting things into Republic of Ireland, but we're working on that. If your business is having issues moving goods from the EU to UK I will happily recommend some haulage companies to you.

Raw material shortages (in my industry - construction) are being driven by a booming Chinese economy and an unprecedented number of companies around the world triggering "force majeure" clauses in 2021. Nothing to do with Brexit whatsoever!

 

[Dick Swiveller]

I really hope the video of the Swansea Welsh Returning Officer reading out the Conservative candidate has been recorded. Let's just say he had a Nicky Campbell moment. Bear in mind he was looking for the phrase Conservative Candidate and had been saying the Welsh word for 100 a lot. The word is cant.

 

[Hastings gull]

I disagree. I live in Shoreham like you. We must shop in different supermarkets because I don't see empty shelves. Material supply is a huge global issue and in the vast majority of cases absolutely bugger all to do with Brexit. My colleagues in the EU are suffering long lead times too. I bring a couple of million quids worth of goods over the UK/EU border every month with literally no issues. The only brexit related delays in my business are due to customs clearance procedures getting things into Republic of Ireland, but we're working on that. If your business is having issues moving goods from the EU to UK I will happily recommend some haulage companies to you.

Raw material shortages (in my industry - construction) are being driven by a booming Chinese economy and an unprecedented number of companies around the world triggering "force majeure" clauses in 2021. Nothing to do with Brexit whatsoever!

Please avoid real life in your posts =this is not what the punters wnat to read/believe.