[Politics] May 2021 local elections and Hartlepool by-election

[pastafarian]

Is it all down to opposing Brexit? The last election saw more people voting for remain parties than leave parties. Ironically, 52% voted for pro-remain parties.

This isnt true though.
Labours manifesto policy was to re-negotiate a new exit deal and then put the exit deal or remain to a referendum with Corbyn and Labour taking a neutral stance not a remain stance on the vote.
This doesnt make 52% openly pro-remain. Some arrogant sneering political commentators pretended it did though as they could only see a second vote would have produced a remain decision as a forgone conclusion with the stupid Brits waking up to the mistake they had made.......or some such patronising nonsense

 

[Pevenseagull]

As far as i am concerned it seems to me that so many people have no idea about current affairs, I speak to people about what is going on in the news regarding Covid and the rules, backhanders, PPE and many other things regarding Johnson and the tories and they sat I did not know that.
People must be getting all their info from Facebook and Twitter or a rag like the Daily Mail.
Thickos in Hartlepool have still voted on Brexit, that is how stupid they are, but they have voted for a public schoolboy who is responsible for killing thousands with his dithering, the vaccine roll out has sod all to do with Johnson, it is down to the NHS alone, a real kick up they arse for one that areas biggest employer.
They have basically forgiven Johnson for all the deadly mistakes,including killing nurses, and corrupt activities that he has, is and will continue to do.
Gave up on the majority of the public some time ago, we are awash with ignorant morons.

The Great British public voted "Mrs Brown's Boys" best comedy of the 21st century.

 

[beorhthelm]

As far as i am concerned it seems to me that so many people have no idea about current affairs, I speak to people about what is going on in the news regarding Covid and the rules, backhanders, PPE and many other things regarding Johnson and the tories and they sat I did not know that.
People must be getting all their info from Facebook and Twitter or a rag like the Daily Mail.
Thickos in Hartlepool have still voted on Brexit, that is how stupid they are, but they have voted for a public schoolboy who is responsible for killing thousands with his dithering, the vaccine roll out has sod all to do with Johnson, it is down to the NHS alone, a real kick up they arse for one that areas biggest employer.
They have basically forgiven Johnson for all the deadly mistakes,including killing nurses, and corrupt activities that he has, is and will continue to do.
Gave up on the majority of the public some time ago, we are awash with ignorant morons.

wait, those issues are all in the papers, all over social media. you cant say at the same time they dont know about current affairs and they get their info from newspapers and social media. maybe it comes down to the ordinary voter doesnt care much or passes over on such details. they dont ascribe the PM action directly to killing thousands as you wish to. doesnt make them thick, maybe they have more nuanced views than you'll give them credit for.

 

[Iggle Piggle]

Isn't this one quite simple? Labour put up a massive remainer, with no consultation of the locals, in a Brexit seat thinking it was West London, Guardian readers voting and not real people from Hartlepool?

 

[Seasidesage]

And there is a lot of the problem. That attitude is far from uncommon among the self-proclaimed moral majority - "I am right and you are stupid" - and it's not a vote-winner.

Labour's big problem is that they have lost their core vote. Twenty and thirty years ago there were people in Burnley would have poked their eyes out rather than vote Conservative. (Hence the BNP votes that some of your members still bang on about. The Labour party had successive mayors who committed gross indecency in a park at half term, who put the nicest council houses aside for their own special friends, and who put their parents on the electoral roll without them ever having lived in this country) and there were no Liberal council candidates. BNP was mostly a protest vote.)

And yet now Burnley has a Tory MP, for the first time in this century or the last. The "working classes" as a whole are basically conservative with a small c. They want to be richer - who doesn't? - but they don't want massive upheavals in society. The absolute article of faith that existed for so long, that the Tories are against them and Labour are for them, has gone. I'm not saying there is necessarily any strong feeling that the Tories are for them, but there is certainly a strong feeling that Labour is not for them.

This. People who disagree with you are not by definition stupid and its this attitude that ignore what the working classes are actually saying in favour of what we think they SHOULD be saying that is the root of Labour's problems. The Tories care no more than Labour do but are prepared to bend to public opinion at least where it suits them to do so. Much of the north feel abandoned not only by Westminster where they expect it but locally by Labour who ignore their concerns to focus on PC and woke issues which may be worthy but which don't resonate with their core voters.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

Len McCluskey has an a lot to answer for, his destruction of David Miliband robbed Labour of a potentially sharp leader, they got his brother and then clown prince. Ok so that's champagne socialism , yes but its a damn site better than champagne Tories being in charge. We need a fairer society, we don't need more billionaires or billionaires getting richer but equally people need to be able to see that working hard will allow them to progress and get the things they want but still support and help those that can't help themselves.

My family friends daughter and her boyfriend both in their 20's are finally getting on the property ladder, so you can progress if you work hard and that's the key. I don't know what else a government is meant to do to support people really. And the government does support people. My brother has learning difficultues, he gets disability allowance, works for a company that understands his issues, there are many other countries even in the EU where you wouldn't even get this type of support.

 

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

General Secretary of Unite the Union Len McCluskey, has said he hopes Sir Keir Starmer “learns the correct lessons” from Labour’s defeat in the Hartlepool by-election.

“He was elected a year ago on a radical programme, some said a Corbyn-esque programme; he said he wanted to make the moral case for socialism; he wanted a united party - unfortunately he’s failed in all of those areas.

"Hartlepool is the manifestation of it - people don’t know what his vision is. People don’t know what Labour stand for anymore.”

Speaking on Political Thinking on BBC Radio Four, Mr McCluskey told Nick Robinson he no longer spoke to the Labour leader.

“Unfortunately when either side actually don’t deliver the deal and say there wasn’t a deal, trust breaks down, and that’s what happened with me and Keir.

But he added: “Obviously if he rang me I would speak to him. I don’t want to be nasty to anybody."

"But the truth of the matter at the moment is unless he presses that reset button, unless he goes back to making the moral case for socialism, unless he starts talking about the radical alternative for ordinary working people then I’m afraid we’ll find ourselves in this continuous downward decline.”

++

Harsh words from one of The Labour Party's biggest donors....

 

[KZNSeagull]

Isn't this one quite simple? Labour put up a massive remainer, with no consultation of the locals, in a Brexit seat thinking it was West London, Guardian readers voting and not real people from Hartlepool?

It may even be simpler than that if Redcar is anything to go by - always voted Labour, life was shit and not improving, voted Lib Dem, life was shit and not improving, vote Tory and see what happens. It is now up to the Conservatives to improve these people's lives, fail and I doubt that they will vote for them again.

 

[Icy Gull]

Well that was a quick honeymoon for Starmer

 

[Pavilionaire]

"But the truth of the matter at the moment is unless he presses that reset button, unless he goes back to making the moral case for socialism, unless he starts talking about the radical alternative for ordinary working people then I’m afraid we’ll find ourselves in this continuous downward decline.”

Len McCluskey is a dinosaur. The British electorate have not voted in a socialist government for 47 years and even in that heyday of the unions the majority was a mere 3 seats. That Labour government was so bad they didn't win another GE for 23 years and had to abandon socialism and practically go to the right of the Lib Dems to become electable.

 

[Iggle Piggle]

This. People who disagree with you are not by definition stupid and its this attitude that ignore what the working classes are actually saying in favour of what we think they SHOULD be saying that is the root of Labour's problems. The Tories care no more than Labour do but are prepared to bend to public opinion at least where it suits them to do so. Much of the north feel abandoned not only by Westminster where they expect it but locally by Labour who ignore their concerns to focus on PC and woke issues which may be worthy but which don't resonate with their core voters.

I agree with this and the post it quotes as well. Labour is no longer the party of the working man and has a serious problem merging the latest on trend issue Labour with it's previous core support who couldn't give 2 shits what the likes of Owen Jones or Ash Sarker think. The candidate they put up is a manifestation of this issue.

 

[beorhthelm]

It may even be simpler than that if Redcar is anything to go by - always voted Labour, life was shit and not improving, voted Lib Dem, life was shit and not improving, vote Tory and see what happens. It is now up to the Conservatives to improve these people's lives, fail and I doubt that they will vote for them again.

rather the point of democracy.

 

[Weststander]

wait, those issues are all in the papers, all over social media. you cant say at the same time they dont know about current affairs and they get their info from newspapers and social media. maybe it comes down to the ordinary voter doesnt care much or passes over on such details. they dont ascribe the PM action directly to killing thousands as you wish to. doesnt make them thick, maybe they have more nuanced views than you'll give them credit for.

This.

It's sheer arrogance, and ignorance, for some Remain Labour/Green/LibDem voters in Sussex, Islinton or Hackney, to deem anyone in Burnley or Hartlepool who has a different view to theirs as thick or a racist.

People saw their communities transformed in a few short years, without a genuine say, they felt disenfranchised as the chattering and ruling classes (Tory, Labour and LibDem) in the major cities decided their fate.

Exemplified by Brown labelliing (behind her back) the woman who asked a perfectly reasonable question a bigot, similarly a snide Thornberry tweeting a photo of a home with St George's flags and a van.

It's little wonder there was a backlash.

 

[The Clamp]

This isnt true though.
Labours manifesto policy was to re-negotiate a new exit deal and then put the exit deal or remain to a referendum with Corbyn and Labour taking a neutral stance not a remain stance on the vote.
This doesnt make 52% openly pro-remain. Some arrogant sneering political commentators pretended it did though as they could only see a second vote would have produced a remain decision as a forgone conclusion with the stupid Brits waking up to the mistake they had made.......or some such patronising nonsense

Crikey, you’re well known for scratching around for an argument but that takes the biscuit!

 

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

Isn't this one quite simple? Labour put up a massive remainer, with no consultation of the locals, in a Brexit seat thinking it was West London, Guardian readers voting and not real people from Hartlepool?

It certainly didn't help - whoever sat on the selection panel should take a long hard look at themselves.

But it was only part of the picture.

 

[pb21]

The "working classes" as a whole are basically conservative with a small c. They want to be richer - who doesn't? - but they don't want massive upheavals in society.

The thing is there are massive upheavals in society, always have been, always will be.

Maybe things are changing quicker these days, but that's not the fault of Labour, it's the same the world over.

Labour are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

 

[zefarelly]

Really ? The vast majority would vote remain now ? I voted remain and I'd vote leave if there were another vote

I daren't ask why!

 

[GT49er]

Isn't this one quite simple? Labour put up a massive remainer, with no consultation of the locals, in a Brexit seat thinking it was West London, Guardian readers voting and not real people from Hartlepool?

Who'd'a thunk it?


(Obviously beyond the grasp of whoever in the Labour Party selected that candidate).

 

[Billy the Fish]

And yet now Burnley has a Tory MP, for the first time in this century or the last. The "working classes" as a whole are basically conservative with a small c. They want to be richer - who doesn't? - but they don't want massive upheavals in society. The absolute article of faith that existed for so long, that the Tories are against them and Labour are for them, has gone. I'm not saying there is necessarily any strong feeling that the Tories are for them, but there is certainly a strong feeling that Labour is not for them.

Great post!

I remember at the last election a few on here were spouting the old classic "working class people voting for Tories is like turkeys voting for Christmas". It's absolute bollocks, when I talk politics with my mates who are true working class - labourers, plasterers, chippies etc - all they want is the opportunity to work hard and earn money, potentially own a house and not lose too much to the taxman. They haven't got time to worry about relative poverty statistics, transphobia, or Boris's decorating because they're out all day grafting.

The conservatives are the party of the working man, the only way Labour will win back votes from this point is if there's mass unemployment.

 

[nicko31]

Must admit the Tories really need to consider whether they need dodgy donors and mystery funded think tanks snapping at their heels anymore

Few extra flags and a naval frigate doin a couple of laps round Fred Barclay's pad in the Channel and its all sorted

Rule Britainnia, Vote Tory