[News] Just Stop Oil

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

they are taking action because they dont accept compromise. we all use products and services based on fossil fuels and deriviatives, some people think we can end this, or at least stop any production within our shores. at best it just moves it abroard, at worst we lose those products and services that cant be replaced with alternatives. example the Woodhouse coal mine in Cumbria, producing high grade coal for steel making. if the aim of Just Stop Oil is fullfilled, this mine wouldnt go ahead. are we saying we'd prefer to import that coal for steel making or not make any steel?

While I largely agree with you, there is a moral problem with allowing something that has a bad element in it because if we didn't allow it, it would still happen abroad. I can think of several rather horrible things that would, could and do happen abroad that nobody in their right mind would advocate allowing here. I was under the impression we are full steam ahead moving away from coal, now, anyway. The idea of opening a new coal mine seems on a par with opeining up a new work house

On the main topic of the thread, with the best will in the world, smashing up a petrol station and stopping thousands of people doing their job, delivering food etc., in the name of the environment seems a bit like killing a pregnant woman for the sake of global overpopulation.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Remember: Those who called for the abolition of slavery, suffrage for women, and same-sex marriage were also branded lunatics. Until history proved them right.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Remember: Those who called for the abolition of slavery, suffrage for women, and same-sex marriage were also branded lunatics. Until history proved them right.

There is a difference between calling for the abolition of slavery in a letter to the Telegraph, or through a megaphone at Hyde Park, and setting fire to the Tate and Lyle factory.

Just to take one example, I don't think that the antics of Peter Tatchell had a positive impact on same sex equality. While I have every sympathy with him, and found his citizens' arrest attempt on ebaguM rather inspirational, his activism is a personal thing much more related to expressing his neurodiversity than a considered campaign to change peoples' minds. I don't think he cares a great deal about what other people think.

When society and lawmakers enact change it isn't always because of the actions of protesters, regardless of the correctness of the protesting.

One protest I recall that failed was the London dockers' and taxi drivers' marches in the 60s, against immigration. However, there are some who would lable these people heroes and responsible for triggering the events that eventually lead to us leaving the EU to take back control. So the effectiveness of protest is very much in the eye of the beholder.

I went on the big antinuke protest march in around 81 when apparently a million people descended on Hyde Park. It got a tiny half page in the newspapers. Thatcher went ahead with Trident. Perhaps if we had burned down something she might have changed her mind. But somehow I doubt it.

 

[beorhthelm]

... I was under the impression we are full steam ahead moving away from coal, now, anyway. The idea of opening a new coal mine seems on a par with opeining up a new work house

a modern mine is operating some machinery, not the picks at the coalface of yore. we can move away from coal for energy generation, this use is not going away any time soon as there's no alternative to coal in steel making (some experimentation, nothing near production).

 

[Hotchilidog]

they are taking action because they dont accept compromise. we all use products and services based on fossil fuels and deriviatives, some people think we can end this, or at least stop any production within our shores. at best it just moves it abroard, at worst we lose those products and services that cant be replaced with alternatives. example the Woodhouse coal mine in Cumbria, producing high grade coal for steel making. if the aim of Just Stop Oil is fullfilled, this mine wouldnt go ahead. are we saying we'd prefer to import that coal for steel making or not make any steel? or are we going to stop using steel altogether?

Putting it back on the individual just the sort of argument that will do nothing to solve the current crisis, and it is a crisis. We need governments to take action and they are currently failing to do so. This government is still backing new fossil fuel initiatives, it is unacceptable.

Just Stop Oil want to prevent new fossil fuel ventures, they are not advocating turning the taps off right now. We need a proper transition to genuine renewables, onshore wind and solar (and insulation) need the investment that is currently earmarked for the nuclear and fossil fuel industries. We've needed this for decades not just now, yet here we are still talking about it rather than actually doing anything about it. This is not something that the individual can do much about, it is something that has to happen at governmental level.

if you want to do something as an individual go vegan and contribute to a reallocation of land use by reducing the impact industrial agriculture has on the planet.

 

[LamieRobertson]

Remember: Those who called for the abolition of slavery, suffrage for women, and same-sex marriage were also branded lunatics. Until history proved them right.[/QUOTE

Oh that’s ok then…must remember to use that for any cause I or anyone chooses to support with the action these people have taken

 

[zefarelly]

There is a difference between calling for the abolition of slavery in a letter to the Telegraph, or through a megaphone at Hyde Park, and setting fire to the Tate and Lyle factory.

Just to take one example, I don't think that the antics of Peter Tarchell had a positive impact on same sex equality. While I have every sympathy with him, and found his citizens' arrest attempt on ebaguM rather inspirational, his activism is a personal thing much more related to expressing his neurodiversity than a considered campaign to change peoples' minds. I don't think he cares a great deal about what other people think.

When society and lawmakers enact change it isn't always because of the actions of protesters, regardless of the correctness of the protesting.

One protest I recall that failed was the London dockers' and taxi drivers' marches in the 60s, against immigration. However, there are some who would lable these people heroes and responsible for triggering the events that eventually lead to us leaving the EU to take back control. So the effectiveness of protest is very much in the eye of the beholder.

I went on the big antinuke protest march in around 81 when apparently a million people descended on Hyde Park. It got a tiny half page in the newspapers. Thatcher went ahead with Trident. Perhaps if we had burned down something she might have changed her mind. But somehow I doubt it.

Parrish notice:

I worked for a Btn Company who did a load of work @ Tate and Lyle in the early 90's. I learnt that sugar is highly explosive ( we were conveying it ) and generates a good whack of static when moved about in a rush . . . . Tate & Lyle have been pretty good at explosions and burning their own factory down over the years.

Anyway, after that useless bit of info, as you were.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

a modern mine is operating some machinery, not the picks at the coalface of yore. we can move away from coal for energy generation, this use is not going away any time soon as there's no alternative to coal in steel making (some experimentation, nothing near production).

I stand corrected. I was not aware that steel's dependence on coal is inviolate.

Oh but.....hang on.....

https://www.theguardian.com/science...any-ships-first-batch-made-without-using-coal

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Remember: Those who called for the abolition of slavery, suffrage for women, and same-sex marriage were also branded lunatics. Until history proved them right.[/QUOTE

Oh that’s ok then…must remember to use that for any cause I or anyone chooses to support with the action these people have taken

I think that's probably the abridged version of my reply

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

Time to crack a few skulls

Regards
DF

 

[LamieRobertson]

I think that's probably the abridged version of my reply

You know me Harry..one sentence is my limit …two and I’m outside my comfort zone

 

[Billy the Fish]

A lovely woman who lives near us is retired. She is a passionate advocate for Insulate Britain and XR and tells me that she is in a very privileged position, as - having stopped working and having paid off her mortgage - she doesn't need to worry about getting arrested. There are potentially millions of people like her in the UK. Hopefully more and more will come to the same view as her. Just because she's not working doesn't mean she can't protest!

And this is where much of the annoyance lies.

People who don't need to work are choosing methods of protest that disrupt the lives of people who do. Retired people and middle class trust fund babies don't care if they get arrested for stopping people getting to work and being able to earn a living

That's why everyone else thinks they're selfish ********s.

 

[Swansman]

Time to crack a few skulls

Regards
DF

Go ahead, make sure you practice in the mirror first (if you pass the mirror test).

 

[Billy the Fish]

Putting it back on the individual just the sort of argument that will do nothing to solve the current crisis, and it is a crisis. We need governments to take action and they are currently failing to do so. This government is still backing new fossil fuel initiatives, it is unacceptable.

Just Stop Oil want to prevent new fossil fuel ventures, they are not advocating turning the taps off right now. We need a proper transition to genuine renewables, onshore wind and solar (and insulation) need the investment that is currently earmarked for the nuclear and fossil fuel industries. We've needed this for decades not just now, yet here we are still talking about it rather than actually doing anything about it. This is not something that the individual can do much about, it is something that has to happen at governmental level.

if you want to do something as an individual go vegan and contribute to a reallocation of land use by reducing the impact industrial agriculture has on the planet.

Which begs the question: why do all their protests target the individual?

 

[Curious Orange]

We need a proper transition to genuine renewables, onshore wind and solar (and insulation) need the investment that is currently earmarked for the nuclear and fossil fuel industries.

Why take investment away from nuclear, we should absolutely be investing in that as part of the of the non-fossil fuel mix shouldn't we? Renewables have their own impacts on the environment don't forget. We only have so many roofs to put solar panels on for instance (rather than sticking them in fields that are better used for growing stuff), and their lifetime is only 30-50 years currently.

 

[Hotchilidog]

Which begs the question: why do all their protests target the individual?

The protests are meant to be disruptive so that the issue gets more attention. You'd be better off asking governments why they are still refusing to take climate change seriously.

 

[portlock seagull]

what are people supposed to put in there car ...? squirty cream , shampoo...??

I know I could walk or use the bus and train more. Sure not alone!

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Time to crack a few skulls

Regards
DF

Threatening violence online? Evidence if one of these protesters gets a fractured skull.

 

[portlock seagull]

And this is where much of the annoyance lies.

People who don't need to work are choosing methods of protest that disrupt the lives of people who do. Retired people and middle class trust fund babies don't care if they get arrested for stopping people getting to work and being able to earn a living

That's why everyone else thinks they're selfish ********s.

This is why governments don’t need to bother. Angry of Cobham does all their work (ie divide and conquer) for them from the comfort of their Chelsea Tractor/White Van etc. With some satisfaction, I will smile if the Tsunami drowns them first. Unfortunately we’re all going to get wet, even the stupid ones who can’t see beyond their own blinkered vision. That’s if you believe Climate Change is happening, which of course plenty still don’t. I call this category of people ‘the really stupid’

 

[Guinness Boy]

The protests are meant to be disruptive so that the issue gets more attention. You'd be better off asking governments why they are still refusing to take climate change seriously.

"More attention"?

Is there really anyone left in the Western democratic world who hasn't heard of climate change and done something, as an individual about it? Either changed something (or lots of things) in their own ways or, alternatively, taken an intransigent and unscientific view that it's all guff, in which case gluing yourself to a petrol pump is highly unlikely to change their thinking! I'm neither an eco-warrior nor a denier but in the last ten years, without really thinking about it, I've flown less, eaten less meat, recycled everything I am able and used walking / cycling / public transport more compared with the ten years previous to that.

If direct action helps - and we know from our football club it can - then it needs to be direct action against the thing or people causing the problem, in this case governments and some corporations.