Is now the time for Lampard to be dropped?

[Les Biehn]

On another note the wobbles shown by John Terry on Sunday are a bit of a worry.

In the Times Game section yesterday they had some interesting graphics showing movement and statistics. Terry actually made more tackles than Ferdinand 3 (100% successful) to 0 and his pass rate was more successful. Ferdinand also never ventures to the left side of the pitch at all, occupying much the same space as Hargreaves did. Terry however covered nearly the whole back line and considering that Tenorio was coming in from the left (Ferdinand's side) it is telling that Terry made more tackles on him. My personal feeling is Terry gets exposed by trying to cover for other defenders, Ferdinand in particular. I have seen this happen many times for Chelsea, especially when Carvalho is player (a player very similar to Ferdinand).

 

[Uncle Buck]

In the Times Game section yesterday they had some interesting graphics showing movement and statistics. Terry actually made more tackles than Ferdinand 3 (100% successful) to 0 and his pass rate was more successful. Ferdinand also never ventures to the left side of the pitch at all, occupying much the same space as Hargreaves did. Terry however covered nearly the whole back line and considering that Tenorio was coming in from the left (Ferdinand's side) it is telling that Terry made more tackles on him. My personal feeling is Terry gets exposed by trying to cover for other defenders, Ferdinand in particular. I have seen this happen many times for Chelsea, especially when Carvalho is player (a player very similar to Ferdinand).

But then Terry being unable to deal with that high ball would have led to a goal, except that Ashely Cole was there to bail him out.

 

[Les Biehn]

But then Terry being unable to deal with that high ball would have led to a goal, except that Ashely Cole was there to bail him out.

My point is that he gets pulled out of position which leads to mistakes like this, but he is a much to blame for trying to do to much.

 

[Uncle Buck]

My point is that he gets pulled out of position which leads to mistakes like this, but he is a much to blame for trying to do to much.

Maybe. Think Ferdinand has looked OK this tournament, to date.

 

[Les Biehn]

Maybe. Think Ferdinand has looked OK this tournament, to date.

I don't disagree there, but I do think he has a habit of not being where the ball is sometimes.

 

[Sid James]

I don't disagree there, but I do think he has a habit of not being where the ball is sometimes.

Totally agree Les, my biggest bugbear with Ferdinand that is.

He was nowhere near Delgado who flicked on the ball which Terry failed to deal with. He seems to have one of these switch off moments in every game for England.

 

[Les Biehn]

Totally agree Les, my biggest bugbear with Ferdinand that is.

He was nowhere near Delgado who flicked on the ball which Terry failed to deal with. He seems to have one of these switch off moments in every game for England.

Exactly, I don't dispute Terry was culpable but the bigger picture shows that there are tactical reasons that often lead to such errors.

 

[Uncle Buck]

Exactly, I don't dispute Terry was culpable but the bigger picture shows that there are tactical reasons that often lead to such errors.

Lack of pace?

 

[Les Biehn]

Lack of pace?

I see it like this, Ferdinand is not great in the air and doesn't really like the rough stuff and goes missing a bit. As the leader of the defence Terry should be telling him to be aware. However Terry sometimes tries to do to much, pulling himself out of position and getting into trouble because his reading of the game can't make up for his lack of pace. But this is all IMHO.

 

[Schrödinger's Toad]

Carrick for me was not as good in the holding role as Hargreaves was against Sweden

Really?

It seemed that every (half-) chance we had was set up by him - Hargreaves got more tackles in, but then they're very different players.

 

[blockhseagull]

Really?

It seemed that every (half-) chance we had was set up by him - Hargreaves got more tackles in, but then they're very different players.

Isn't that the whole point of a holding midfielder to break up play ?

 

[London Irish]

I would love England to play a brand of football based on possession but this isn't a switch you can flick. For nine months of every year our players get the ball and try to hurt the opposition as quickly as possible. That is their mindset and to ask them to do anything different for their country would just be plain silly.

As plain silly as not winning an international tournament for 40 years (and rising)? As silly as that?

I would say a lot of the old black and white caricatures about English v Continental style football are blurring a bit because of the influence of the Champions League and the top English clubs and the style of football they play under the influence of foreign coaches. Therefore it is not naive and idealistic to ask the top English pros to play a style of football that consistently wins tournament football.

The penny will eventually drop some day, Sven has taken them a little way but not far enough.

 

[Les Biehn]

As plain silly as not winning an international tournament for 40 years (and rising)? As silly as that?

I would say a lot of the old black and white caricatures about English v Continental style football are blurring a bit because of the influence of the Champions League and the top English clubs and the style of football they play under the influence of foreign coaches. Therefore it is not naive and idealistic to ask the top English pros to play a style of football that consistently wins tournament football.

The penny will eventually drop some day, Sven has taken them a little way but not far enough.

I think the problem is Sven has failed to marry the two styles, rather trying to crow bar in a system to a style that doesn't suit. I agree that we can't keep banging on about using the traditional english style that so ill suited for the international stage but we need to take elements (the natural attacking instinct, the never say die attitude) and marry it to a more considered tactical and technical approach. I think we have seen this work well for the first time in large spells at this world cup (first half against Sweden being the finest example). The trouble is Sven tries to kill the instinct and doesn't enforce a ridgid system whereas it should be the other way round, encourage the instinct but enforce a ridgid system.

 

[Hannibal smith]

Lampard looks good at Chelsea as he has Makkele behind him and so has zero defensive duties. For England at times Gerrard has done this, but he does also like to get forward.

Part of the problem from my FIFA acquired seat on Sunday was we were playing a completely different formation to one that we had used up until now and Gerrard and Lampard were getting in each others way. Carrick was OK, but he was not great, seemed to have an element of stage fright.

At this stage in a tournament, I really think we have to use a system that English players are comfortable with and generally that is 4-4-2 or at a push 5-3-2. So it means bringing Crouch back in (pressuming that Walcott is in fact one of those school children that got a free ticket off the Government). If you have Crouch leading the line, it allows Rooney to drop deep and play his natural game and give more of a link with the midfield.

It is obvious that we need a holding midfielder in there, which will be either Carrick or Hargreaves (with Neville back in training, it would look to be Hargreaves) so then it is one of Gerrard or Lampard. On present form and I have to say talent, it will probably be Gerrard, he has 2 goals this tournament and is use to carrying a side, something that Lampard has not had to do at Chelsea.

On another note the wobbles shown by John Terry on Sunday are a bit of a worry.

Spot on. Couldn't agree more.

I think, though, that 16-1 is a fair price that Sven drops either Gerrard or Lampard if both are fit.

 

[London Calling]

Personally I go for a 4 5 1

with the midfield of Hargreaves, Gerrard, Cole, Carrick and Beckham.

A midfield of ball winners, defence, attack, passing and play makers.

LC

 

[Schrödinger's Toad]

Personally I go for a 4 5 1

with the midfield of Hargreaves, Gerrard, Cole, Carrick and Beckham.

A midfield of ball winners, defence, attack, passing and play makers.

LC

Not a bad idea.

You could play a version of the 4-2-3-1 Spain play;

..............Cole
Carrick
..............Gerrard
Hargreaves
............ Beckham

Would probably work better with Lennon, but's that's not about to happen ...

 

[London Calling]

Not a bad idea.

You could play a version of the 4-2-3-1 Spain play;

..............Cole
Carrick
..............Gerrard
Hargreaves
............ Beckham

Would probably work better with Lennon, but's that's not about to happen ...

I reckon Lennon could easily fit in around the 65 minute mark as the non-performing midfielder id taken off

 

[Sid James]

As plain silly as not winning an international tournament for 40 years (and rising)? As silly as that?

I would say a lot of the old black and white caricatures about English v Continental style football are blurring a bit because of the influence of the Champions League and the top English clubs and the style of football they play under the influence of foreign coaches. Therefore it is not naive and idealistic to ask the top English pros to play a style of football that consistently wins tournament football.

The penny will eventually drop some day, Sven has taken them a little way but not far enough.

I think that naive and idealistic are excellent words to describe the act of asking a player to do something that goes completely against their natural instincts. It is interesting that you use the Champions League as a reference point because the successful Liverpool and Man Utd teams hardly broke the mould of 'direct high tempo attacking football' did they ?

I don't dispute that our style does us no favours in these summer tournaments but then the patient possession approach has hardly seen the Italians and Spanish shower themselves in trophies at World Cups either has it. If you are going to lose, at least lose the way you know best.

 

[London Irish]

If you are going to lose, at least lose the way you know best.

Well, I think the FA has picked Steve McClaren precisely because he meets the expectations of fans like yourself - enjoy!

And I would not judge Benitez's Liverpool team as typically English and representative of fast, direct football either, nor Wenger's Arsenal. These are examples of how English football is gradually changing - the national team can either be in the vanguard of that process or lag behind, my money is on the latter right now, and I think that's a shame, it's wasted potential.

 

[Pavilionaire]

LI, when you say English football and Arsenal in the same breath what exactly do you mean?

The only English thing about them are 2 defenders who have little influence on the attacking output of the Arsenal side.

A more representative description would be "Premiership" style - Arsenal don't represent England, rather the Premiership - our top League.

As regards the Portugal match there are only 2 things Sven has to concern himself with:

1. Holding onto the ball, i.e. the reason we didn't beat Portugal last time, and
2. How to get the best out of our key players - Rooney, Crouch and Gerrard.

Now is the time to be bold. Starting Hargeaves in central midfield is a defensive move, and we need to take advantage of the absence of Deco and dictate.

We will do this by dropping Lampard and playing Crouch alongside Rooney, thus giving everyone clearly-defined responsibilities.

This team understands 4-4-2 and, more importantly, every player (with the possible exception of Joe Cole) would be playing in their best position for their club.