[Albion] Is Graham Potter overrated as a Premier League manager?

[Guinness Boy]

You made a separate point which I replied to. Are we talking about [MENTION=34997]Your Mum[/MENTION]'s mum?

It's a supporting point.

When you have two managers in charge of exactly the same squad you almost never get exactly the same results. Cooper is one example and [MENTION=24827]Justice[/MENTION] correctly points out Nuno as another. Just more real world evidence that [MENTION=38333]Swansman[/MENTION] was talking out of his butthole again.

 

[Weststander]

I have a somewhat different view to you and [MENTION=21158]Weststander[/MENTION] and [MENTION=616]Guinness Boy[/MENTION] on this. Getting results tend to flow from how you play and, even more so, finish. That's my basic point, but a few more empirically oriented comments flowing from this:
-- under CH in the PL, we weren't exactly eye-candy and deteriorated as opposition managers worked us out. But CH did know how to eke out a win, which is probably why GB rates him so highly -- again, however, his ability to do that in the PL was on the wane. We had an ageing, slow, undynamic squad and, if we kept him, would have been strong relegation candidates the season after
-- last season under GP, I thought we played brilliantly. This was reflected in our xG which comfortably exceeded our table position: we weren't just fannying about at the back, we were creating great chances, but not finishing them.
-- this season, I don't think we've hit those heights. What we have managed to do is to eke out results and stay in games. Much of that is down to squad togetherness and resilience, plus also an excellent defence: check out where we were on that front up until 6 games ago. We've missed Webster big time, Burn to a lesser extent (but that's been exacerbated by Web's absence) and Dunk has lost something.
-- broadly, our finishing hasn't been up to scratch for two seasons (with the exception of the first c20/23 games this season). That's a feature of our squad, which has changed dramatically since GP joined, and is now much younger, with far more potential (which will likely be realised), far more pace and dynamism, and with much better re-sale value. It's as much a feature of our poor return from midfield as it is on the 3 main forwards that play -- but we suffer up-front from a lack of variation that even our peers in the table (CP, Saints) comfortably beat us on.
-- I do agree on Weststander's counter-attacking point. We need to find ways of bringing the opposition on to us, and then hitting them swiftly and devastatingly. Liverpool are the masters at this, and even do it from just in (rather than deep in) their own half -- witness Diaz's goal from Matip's delightful ball -- but they've got better players, and much better finishers than us.

Good post.

I do think we’ve taken significant steps backwards this season in defence and creatively. xG and xGA prove that.

We now know why Arsenal paid £50m for BW, who looked bloody good when switched to RB for England last Saturday. Unfortunately, almost irreplaceable.

Anyone voicing any grumbles whatsoever in this thread is being labelled as an anti Potter. I’m not. Just a huge frustration with recruitment and watching a losing/drawing/goal-shy football team.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Absolutely not me.

I hope we lose tomorrow because this place will be absolutely bat pooh cra-cra.

Which in turn is ALWAYS feckin great, super, smashing, nice.

I really shouldn't of, but I did snigger when I read that.

 

[Bold Seagull]

It's a supporting point.

When you have two managers in charge of exactly the same squad you almost never get exactly the same results. Cooper is one example and [MENTION=24827]Justice[/MENTION] correctly points out Nuno as another. Just more real world evidence that [MENTION=38333]Swansman[/MENTION] was talking out of his butthole again.

But is that actually the case, or is what Cooper has done at Forest the exception?

I reckon we could probably look at more examples of when a managerial change doesn't make a noticeable impact to the same squad than when it does.

Nuno's Spurs had a sulky Kane, Conte's Spurs hasn't. Effectively the only difference in their results. Rangnick following Solksjear, no change. Hogdson following Ranieri, no change. Smith following Farke, no change. Lampard following Benitez, no change. So when you say 'almost never get the same results' - is that actually true, and that's just this season!

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Good post.

I do think we’ve taken significant steps backwards this season in defence and creatively. xG and xGA prove that.

We now know why Arsenal paid £50m for BW, who looked bloody good when switched to RB for England last Saturday. Unfortunately, almost irreplaceable.

Anyone voicing any grumbles whatsoever in this thread is being labelled as an anti Potter. I’m not. Just a huge frustration with recruitment and watching a losing/drawing/goal-shy football team.

I think we all know we need some signings, including better forward options, but the likes of BW2 (no, I mean just BW2) have been so feckin tedious about 'we need a new striker, is Potter blind, we would of been safe by now if....' that one has been inclined to dig one's heels in. A bit. Ahem. Just because a plum keeps repeating the same thing over and over doesn't make it wrong

But I have learned to not worry about things about which I can do nothing. We can do something about Potter if we want him out. We can boo and chant 'Potter OUT'. Anyone up for that?

If we lose tomorrow or fail to muster much in the way of decent shots on goal, with a reasonable proportion of our better players available for selection, it wouldn't come as a massive surprise to me if Potter is sacked. Do I want that? No. I want a win. Do I think Potter can take us forward in the medium term? I don't know, and I don't really care as it isn't my shout. I am still finding it hard to work up great antipathy towards Potter, and would prefer to see how things pan out over the rest of the season. Mr Bloom is the boss, and he's done us proud.

Anyway, I may be peculiar but I know my opinions are worthless. As are others that may be available .

 

[Swansman]

It's a supporting point.

When you have two managers in charge of exactly the same squad you almost never get exactly the same results. Cooper is one example and [MENTION=24827]Justice[/MENTION] correctly points out Nuno as another. Just more real world evidence that [MENTION=38333]Swansman[/MENTION] was talking out of his butthole again.

Dont know when Cooper had the same squad as a previous manager? In Swansea he definitely didnt have it and in Nottingham sure he did but he also had a bit more time to work with them. I dont think Hughton would have kept losing every single game while he was in charge but its true that sometimes the managerial impact can be unusually big if the players develop a resentment against their coach like it appears was the case in Nottingham or for Mourinho in United.

But that two managers in charge of similar squads get different results is no evidence. Chris Wilder was in charge of the Sheffield United that came 9th and the one that came on 20th, so obviously results can differ even if you have nearly the exact same group of players and the exact same manager.

 

[Swansman]

I'd love to see Cooper at The Albion. However, I think he's too ugly for us and, moreover, looks like he spends his afternoons in a park with a bag of sweets attempting, but failing, to pull off a cheeky smile.

Ugly is one thing, not much he can do about it... what annoyed Swansea fans about Cooper was how he after any lost game, where they'd usually play awful and refuse to make any subs or tactical changes, would sit around and blame the ref or the pitch or the weather. Swansea are not doing particularly well this season yet their fans like Russel Martin a lot more than they liked Cooper.

The results under Cooper were fine and of course managers play some part in that. He had a lot better squad than Potter (and now Martin) had however so its no rocket science why they got better results under him.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Dont know when Cooper had the same squad as a previous manager? In Swansea he definitely didnt have it and in Nottingham sure he did but he also had a bit more time to work with them. I dont think Hughton would have kept losing every single game while he was in charge but its true that sometimes the managerial impact can be unusually big if the players develop a resentment against their coach like it appears was the case in Nottingham or for Mourinho in United.

But that two managers in charge of similar squads get different results is no evidence. Chris Wilder was in charge of the Sheffield United that came 9th and the one that came on 20th, so obviously results can differ even if you have nearly the exact same group of players and the exact same manager.

But is that actually the case, or is what Cooper has done at Forest the exception?

I reckon we could probably look at more examples of when a managerial change doesn't make a noticeable impact to the same squad than when it does.

Nuno's Spurs had a sulky Kane, Conte's Spurs hasn't. Effectively the only difference in their results. Rangnick following Solksjear, no change. Hogdson following Ranieri, no change. Smith following Farke, no change. Lampard following Benitez, no change. So when you say 'almost never get the same results' - is that actually true, and that's just this season!

Sorry but you've both missed the point.

Everton brought in two fullbacks and then sacked the manager literally a week later. That's not the same squad. Wilder made changes in the lockdown transfer window. Perhaps Conte was the reason Kane stopped sulking? Everyone's followed everyone at Watford, the lack of stability is the outlier, not Cooper. There isn't another big club in the UK that has the same model and coaches must surely understand it's the equivalent of a six month IT contract at vastly inflated prices to sort out year 2000 issues that still persist in 2022. And, by the way, it isn't a terrible model which might back up both your points, but then why on earth should we keep Potter if we lose tomorrow?

 

[Weststander]

I think we all know we need some signings, including better forward options, but the likes of BW2 (no, I mean just BW2) have been so feckin tedious about 'we need a new striker, is Potter blind, we would of been safe by now if....' that one has been inclined to dig one's heels in. A bit. Ahem. Just because a plum keeps repeating the same thing over and over doesn't make it wrong

But I have learned to not worry about things about which I can do nothing. We can do something about Potter if we want him out. We can boo and chant 'Potter OUT'. Anyone up for that?

If we lose tomorrow or fail to muster much in the way of decent shots on goal, with a reasonable proportion of our better players available for selection, it wouldn't come as a massive surprise to me if Potter is sacked. Do I want that? No. I want a win. Do I think Potter can take us forward in the medium term? I don't know, and I don't really care as it isn't my shout. I am still finding it hard to work up great antipathy towards Potter, and would prefer to see how things pan out over the rest of the season. Mr Bloom is the boss, and he's done us proud.

Anyway, I may be peculiar but I know my opinions are worthless. As are others that may be available .

“But I have learned to not worry about things about which I can do nothing”.

Definitely, a life/living message for anyone. So important, that’s how I cope emotionally with Putin’s genocide.

For me I just like talking about football, giving my views and venting after a loss.

The Albion never get me depressed. I don’t support them as much as all the folk round here who get hurt and I’m too lazy to invest days for away games.

 

[Stat Brother]

why on earth should we keep Potter if we lose tomorrow?

I can still think of more reasons for keeping him than sacking him.
But that's very much dependant on the manner of such a defeat.

If we get served up:-

Starting slowly.
Unable to breakdown rigid banks of 5 and 4.
71% possession.
2 shots on target.

Losing 0-1 to Josh Sargent goal (78) who benefited from 3 passes after a loose Albion pass on the edge of the Norwich box.

Then I think I'd have found the end of my tether.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Sorry but you've both missed the point.

Everton brought in two fullbacks and then sacked the manager literally a week later. That's not the same squad. Wilder made changes in the lockdown transfer window. Perhaps Conte was the reason Kane stopped sulking? Everyone's followed everyone at Watford, the lack of stability is the outlier, not Cooper. There isn't another big club in the UK that has the same model and coaches must surely understand it's the equivalent of a six month IT contract at vastly inflated prices to sort out year 2000 issues that still persist in 2022. And, by the way, it isn't a terrible model which might back up both your points, but then why on earth should we keep Potter if we lose tomorrow?

Yeah must be us that missed the point. I need my first beer of the night!

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

“But I have learned to not worry about things about which I can do nothing”.

Definitely, a life/living message for anyone. So important, that’s how I cope emotionally with Putin’s genocide.

For me I just like talking about football, giving my views and venting after a loss.

The Albion never get me depressed. I don’t support them as much as all the folk round here who get hurt and I’m too lazy to invest days for away games.

 

[Guinness Boy]

“But I have learned to not worry about things about which I can do nothing”.

Definitely, a life/living message for anyone. So important, that’s how I cope emotionally with Putin’s genocide.

For me I just like talking about football, giving my views and venting after a loss.

The Albion never get me depressed. I don’t support them as much as all the folk round here who get hurt and I’m too lazy to invest days for away games.

Away days for me are all about the day out with your mates. I never get hurt by an away defeat, I expect it.

I once went all the way to Oldham to freeze my nuts off and watch us lose 6-0 on a plastic pitch that was worse than the one installed at Portslade Community College. I expected little else back in those days and the people I went with are still mates now.

It's becoming increasingly depressing, however, going to the Amex for a home game against Burnley to have a similar performance from players paid in the large millions instead of a few thousand and for the only thing to look forward to being a one hour journey home that's seven miles or less.

I find travel quite fascinating and my boy does to. We were shit at Villa in November but what we remember from that day is playing cards together on the train, meeting a friend at the Christmas market, watching the early game in the Head of Steam and the ridiculously pissed rugby fan who got on at Clapham on the way home who turned out to know (so he claimed) Aaron Connolly and Lewis Dunk.

What I remember of our last home games is massive, massive disappointment.

 

[BluesRockDJ]

IMHO:

Overall across the 3 seasons, on a par with the budget handed to him.

Positives - bringing on young players, a confident passing game.
Negatives - the tactics are exposed against savvy counter-attacking teams, who set out to rope-a-dope. Also, 6 transfer windows and we still lack pace/power amongst our forwards .... but is that fault of the transfer committee?

Would he be a success on a bigger budget at say Leicester, Newcastle or Villa? I think he would.

Struggle to think of any young players he "brought on" , other than who were already at the club, or who have gone out on loan ?

 

[Weststander]

Away days for me are all about the day out with your mates. I never get hurt by an away defeat, I expect it.

I once went all the way to Oldham to freeze my nuts off and watch us lose 6-0 on a plastic pitch that was worse than the one installed at Portslade Community College. I expected little else back in those days and the people I went with are still mates now.

It's becoming increasingly depressing, however, going to the Amex for a home game against Burnley to have a similar performance from players paid in the large millions instead of a few thousand and for the only thing to look forward to being a one hour journey home that's seven miles or less.

I find travel quite fascinating and my boy does to. We were shit at Villa in November but what we remember from that day is playing cards together on the train, meeting a friend at the Christmas market, watching the early game in the Head of Steam and the ridiculously pissed rugby fan who got on at Clapham on the way home who turned out to know (so he claimed) Aaron Connolly and Lewis Dunk.

What I remember of our last home games is massive, massive disappointment.

Amex Potter losses, on repeat - bad fan here, I hate the 4 hours wasted to see tripe. This season we’ve regressed, against Villa I literally got out of my seat once for a Lamptey run. (Like you I think?) at football I used to morph into a loud, passionate fan …. it made my son laugh that my deep voice carries. I’ve got good lungs. This season stinks.

I love travel and seeing this country. I have been to many towns and cities to us play, it ended with Notts County May11, Villa FAC game and loving the city of Liverpool I’ve made that fixture a few times. I prefer to stay over in a hotel. I’ve never done the football boozing thing, my mates were Spuds, QPR and someone who as an adult bizarrely went Ipswich to Arsenal chasing silverware, last thing I heard he was a 1901 member!

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Olive branch cultists?

I haven't read anything by anybody on here extolling the special and secret virtues of Potter for weeks (months?). Not sure that even Swansman has said anything in his favour. I think the cult of Potter is a myth

I certainly agree there are a few rabid Potterouters, though. I would give more of them credence after 7* straight league defeats were it not for the fact the tune of some was exactly the same when we were doing nicely.

Never mind. BW2 will be along in a minute to propose a solution to our scoring problem, I'm sure.

*Counting the 0-1 tomorrow, obvs.

Yep, it’s a historical reference but only as far back as last season. Basically whenever we lose Junior comes on here to slag off Potter. Whenever we win the other side come on here to knowingly offer an olive branch when what they are actually doing is singing their own virtues. Both sides as bad as each other. Personally I want to keep Potter in post at the moment as overall he is doing a good job. However I am a BHA fan first and foremost and do not want to marry him.

 

[Weststander]

Yep, it’s a historical reference but only as far back as last season. Basically whenever we lose Junior comes on here to slag off Potter. Whenever we win the other side come on here to knowingly offer an olive branch when what they are actually doing is singing their own virtues. Both sides as bad as each other. Personally I want to keep Potter in post at the moment as overall he is doing a good job. However I am a BHA fan first and foremost and do not want to marry him.

You’ve described it exactly as it happened, a rollercoaster of one week Potter is God, next week his nsc enemies appear en masse. The “olive branches” were false.

 

[Easy 10]

I can still think of more reasons for keeping him than sacking him.
But that's very much dependant on the manner of such a defeat.

If we get served up:-

Starting slowly.
Unable to breakdown rigid banks of 5 and 4.
71% possession.
2 shots on target.

Losing 0-1 to Josh Sargent goal (78) who benefited from 3 passes after a loose Albion pass on the edge of the Norwich box.

Then I think I'd have found the end of my tether.

That sounds so chillingly prescient, and utterly in line with what happens when we are at home to the dreck.

6/1 Narch is sounding like a mightily tempting compensation bet.

 

[Stat Brother]

That sounds so chillingly prescient, and utterly in line with what happens when we are at home to the dreck.

6/1 Narch is sounding like a mightily tempting compensation bet.

I'm going all in on that post.
It's the only way I can influence the result and at least guarantee we don't lose 0-1.

 

[albionalex]

Two injury plagued players with PL experience, one who came from a good Dutch side, the rest were gambles (which mostly worked), However how many others were bought “for the future”. I don’t know but I reckon far more that weren’t remotely PL ready than those you list

Mac, Moder, Trossard, Sanchez, Bissouma, Mwepu, Lamptey, Duffy, Caicedo and Sarmiento were all on international duty this week.

Dunk, Veltman, Cucurella, Alzate, Lallana, Welbz are all ex-internationals or fringe internationals.

I think they're all PL ready.