[Albion] Is Graham Potter overrated as a Premier League manager?

[Neville's Breakfast]

If we lose tomorrow he will be slated by Junior etc as over rated and promoted beyond his abilities. If we beat Norwich then the olive branch cultists will return to share their revelations as knowers of ‘the truth.’ The debate is framed around the extremes even though the majority of us are probably in the middle. That is unlikely to change.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

There's certainly been so shifting of tectonic plates. Until very recently: "both the squad and Potter are amazing, pinch yourself in living the EPL dream, anyone questioning that is a traitor".

Now, a sea of folk blaming squad quality. [They might be correct].

This (bit in bold). Much as we're expected to always doff the cap to TB forevermore, truth be told his spending cap on the only thing that matters, ie Men's First Team, is slowly but surely squeezing us out of the EPL top table. Not that any of his superannuated Yes Men will ever dare tell him such a thing while they're on the TB payroll

 

[Cowfold Seagull]

Now, a sea of folk blaming squad quality. [They might be correct].

Sad but l'm afraid true. It could even be said that he possibly overacheived with this squad of players earlier in the season.

I will never waiver from my opinion of needing to sign an experienced quality striker. It's great to have the academy, but wrong to rely on it totally.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Nuno (Spurs) Lampard (Chelsea) suggests not in football. Both employed vastly better coaches and the results prove it. All this your mum can coach if the players are good enough is utter horse shit.

Exactly.

Steve Cooper taking a squad Hughton couldn't get a tune out of and they're currently three points off the playoffs with a decent cup run behind them. Before that he got more out Swansea than Potter ever did. Some (well, one Swede) might say Cooper had a better squad than Potter but Potter has a better squad than Hughton here, to complete the circle.

 

[southstandandy]

If we lose tomorrow he will be slated by Junior etc as over rated and promoted beyond his abilities. If we beat Norwich then the olive branch cultists will return to share their revelations as knowers of ‘the truth.’ The debate is framed around the extremes even though the majority of us are probably in the middle. That is unlikely to change.

That's why I predict a thrilling 0-0

 

[Weststander]

This (bit in bold). Much as we're expected to always doff the cap to TB forevermore, truth be told his spending cap on the only thing that matters, ie Men's First Team, is slowly but surely squeezing us out of the EPL top table. Not that any of his superannuated Yes Men will ever dare tell him such a thing while they're on the TB payroll

No one would argue about his astonishing and ongoing generosity ... £400m now and passion for his club.

It's the 10 EPL transfer windows that have seen enduring failings. Even Brentford and CP have dealt with the upfront conundrum, without spending Everton or Villa money.

Either the committee under him have failed in that aspect or he has a personal overriding transfer strategy/Moneyball. Things look great on a spreadsheet and in the real world with Ben White, but MS Excel has failed to come up with pace and power ..... for 5 fkn years.

 

[The Antikythera Mechanism]

Nuno (Spurs) Lampard (Chelsea) suggests not in football. Both employed vastly better coaches and the results prove it. All this your mum can coach if the players are good enough is utter horse shit.

Had GP had the Spurs or Chelsea squads he would’ve produced the goods

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

They're all turning now...

Graham Potter is the best English manager, according to Pep Guardiola. He has “all you need” to become an elite manager, said Jurgen Klopp, tipping him for a top job. They are historic compliments, but it is safe to say Potter’s fan club retains some very distinguished members.​

https://www.fourfourtwo.com/features/is-graham-potter-overrated-as-a-premier-league-manager

I read the article and the writer asks the question without answering it. It also doesn't say who has been doing the questionable 'over' rating, either. In other words, tedius clickbait (the article itself, not your posting of it )

In my view, my rating of him changes from time to time but is always correct at the time.

If receiving praise from people in the media from time to time represents over-rating then, yes, yes he's over-rated.

The only social media I read is NSC and the concensus on here has largely remained the same - most people seem happy with him while a noisy minority like to slag him off, but the average level of rating has declined with successive defeats. Fancy that!

As an aside I have a feeling that lots of people don't understand the difference between rating, over-rating, and under-rating. Just like folk who say things like 'it's impossible to underestimate the difference that the loss of Burn and Webster has made to recent performances'.

However, if we lose tomorrow Potter may find that he's no longer rated by Mr Bloom. I wonder how many people are hoping we lose tomorrow so Potter is sacked? Now that does intrigue me.

 

[Icy Gull]

Exactly.

I have been trying to get this point across to the Lewis Hamilton is god brigade on the F1 thread for several years now.
If an average f1 driver had that Merc seat they would look great. If lewis had a Hass he would not touch the podium.
Merc has the backing and the people at the top to achieve his world championships and Lewis is half decent as a driver, which equals wins.

Potter is above average manager using his squad to the best of their abilities imo.
I like to think I manage my football side in similar fashion as graham.

Here's a thought... the best drivers get the best cars and they have a MASSIVE input into the set up but they fecked up big time giving average Lewis Hamilton a drive, he should be driving for Williams and Latifi would be smashing it in a Merc (pun intended).. obviously

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Exactly.

Steve Cooper taking a squad Hughton couldn't get a tune out of and they're currently three points off the playoffs with a decent cup run behind them. Before that he got more out Swansea than Potter ever did. Some (well, one Swede) might say Cooper had a better squad than Potter but Potter has a better squad than Hughton here, to complete the circle.

I'd love to see Cooper at The Albion. However, I think he's too ugly for us and, moreover, looks like he spends his afternoons in a park with a bag of sweets attempting, but failing, to pull off a cheeky smile.

 

[Icy Gull]

I read the article and the writer asks the question without answering it. It also doesn't say who has been doing the questionable 'over' rating, either. In other words, tedius clickbait (the article itself, not your posting of it )

In my view, my rating of him changes from time to time but is always correct at the time.

If receiving praise from people in the media from time to time represents over-rating then, yes, yes he's over-rated.

The only social media I read is NSC and the concensus on here has largely remained the same - most people seem happy with him while a noisy minority like to slag him off, but the average level of rating has declined with successive defeats. Fancy that!

As an aside I have a feeling that lots of people don't understand the difference between rating, over-rating, and under-rating. Just like folk who say things like 'it's impossible to underestimate the difference that the loss of Burn and Webster has made to recent performances'.

However, if we lose tomorrow Potter may find that he's no longer rated by Mr Bloom. I wonder how many people are hoping we lose tomorrow so Potter is sacked? Now that does intrigue me.

Ooohh there are a few waiting in the wings to POUNCE if that happens and yes they probably do want a defeat and a sacking.

 

[Machiavelli]

Agree.

I've lost count of how many games we've enjoyed 60-70-% possession under Potter, but still drawn or lost.

The two main problems seem to be that:

a) much of the possession and passing is in our own half, sideways, or back to the goalie, and on a few occasions, passes have been sloppy, so that they've been intercepted and provided an opportunity for our opponents to attack and score.

b) When we do break-out of our own half and launch an attack, our forwards take too long - one touch too many - trying to line-up the perfect shot, by which time the opponent's defenders have regrouped and closed us down or forced us out wide, away from their goal. Time after time, our 'attacks' predictably fizzle out.

And this will be followed by a typical Potter post-match interview saying how good we were, how much courage the players showed, how much character and personality the lads displayed, to the extent that I sometimes wonder if he's watched a different game to the rest of us!

I have a somewhat different view to you and [MENTION=21158]Weststander[/MENTION] and [MENTION=616]Guinness Boy[/MENTION] on this. Getting results tend to flow from how you play and, even more so, finish. That's my basic point, but a few more empirically oriented comments flowing from this:
-- under CH in the PL, we weren't exactly eye-candy and deteriorated as opposition managers worked us out. But CH did know how to eke out a win, which is probably why GB rates him so highly -- again, however, his ability to do that in the PL was on the wane. We had an ageing, slow, undynamic squad and, if we kept him, would have been strong relegation candidates the season after
-- last season under GP, I thought we played brilliantly. This was reflected in our xG which comfortably exceeded our table position: we weren't just fannying about at the back, we were creating great chances, but not finishing them.
-- this season, I don't think we've hit those heights. What we have managed to do is to eke out results and stay in games. Much of that is down to squad togetherness and resilience, plus also an excellent defence: check out where we were on that front up until 6 games ago. We've missed Webster big time, Burn to a lesser extent (but that's been exacerbated by Web's absence) and Dunk has lost something.
-- broadly, our finishing hasn't been up to scratch for two seasons (with the exception of the first c20/23 games this season). That's a feature of our squad, which has changed dramatically since GP joined, and is now much younger, with far more potential (which will likely be realised), far more pace and dynamism, and with much better re-sale value. It's as much a feature of our poor return from midfield as it is on the 3 main forwards that play -- but we suffer up-front from a lack of variation that even our peers in the table (CP, Saints) comfortably beat us on.
-- I do agree on Weststander's counter-attacking point. We need to find ways of bringing the opposition on to us, and then hitting them swiftly and devastatingly. Liverpool are the masters at this, and even do it from just in (rather than deep in) their own half -- witness Diaz's goal from Matip's delightful ball -- but they've got better players, and much better finishers than us.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

If we lose tomorrow he will be slated by Junior etc as over rated and promoted beyond his abilities. If we beat Norwich then the olive branch cultists will return to share their revelations as knowers of ‘the truth.’ The debate is framed around the extremes even though the majority of us are probably in the middle. That is unlikely to change.

Olive branch cultists?

I haven't read anything by anybody on here extolling the special and secret virtues of Potter for weeks (months?). Not sure that even Swansman has said anything in his favour. I think the cult of Potter is a myth

I certainly agree there are a few rabid Potterouters, though. I would give more of them credence after 7* straight league defeats were it not for the fact the tune of some was exactly the same when we were doing nicely.

Never mind. BW2 will be along in a minute to propose a solution to our scoring problem, I'm sure.

*Counting the 0-1 tomorrow, obvs.

 

[Guinness Boy]

I'd love to see Cooper at The Albion. However, I think he's too ugly for us and, moreover, looks like he spends his afternoons in a park with a bag of sweets attempting, but failing, to pull off a cheeky smile.

It's incredible what Premier League image specialists can do for you though.....

 

[Bold Seagull]

Exactly.

Steve Cooper taking a squad Hughton couldn't get a tune out of and they're currently three points off the playoffs with a decent cup run behind them. Before that he got more out Swansea than Potter ever did. Some (well, one Swede) might say Cooper had a better squad than Potter but Potter has a better squad than Hughton here, to complete the circle.

But football is weird, it has a dark arts about it, music played without knowing how the instruments got tuned. Claudio Ranieri arguably achieved one of the greatest feats in the PL era, perhaps any era, as big as Clough at Forest, and that was to win a PL title with a side spending no where near anything approaching 7 or more clubs above it. Would anyone say Claudio Ranieri is one of the greatest ever managers? I doubt it.

And it's because it's like planetary alignment, sometimes you just get the right manager in the right place with the right player personalities that deliver results far greater than the sum of their parts.

Saying Cooper following Hughton, after following Potter who followed Hughton and making conclusions from that - it doesn't really follow. Hughton isn't a bad manager for what happened a Forest, it doesn't make Potter less of a manager because Cooper took over a team he developed for a year. It might be a circle but one drawn with a crayon by a 3 year old.

 

[Stat Brother]

However, if we lose tomorrow Potter may find that he's no longer rated by Mr Bloom. I wonder how many people are hoping we lose tomorrow so Potter is sacked? Now that does intrigue me.

Absolutely not me.

I hope we lose tomorrow because this place will be absolutely bat pooh cra-cra.

Which in turn is ALWAYS feckin great, super, smashing, nice.

 

[Weststander]

I have a somewhat different view to you and [MENTION=21158]Weststander[/MENTION] and [MENTION=616]Guinness Boy[/MENTION] on this. Getting results tend to flow from how you play and, even more so, finish. That's my basic point, but a few more empirically oriented comments flowing from this:
-- under CH in the PL, we weren't exactly eye-candy and deteriorated as opposition managers worked us out. But CH did know how to eke out a win, which is probably why GB rates him so highly -- again, however, his ability to do that in the PL was on the wane. We had an ageing, slow, undynamic squad and, if we kept him, would have been strong relegation candidates the season after
-- last season under GP, I thought we played brilliantly. This was reflected in our xG which comfortably exceeded our table position: we weren't just fannying about at the back, we were creating great chances, but not finishing them.
-- this season, I don't think we've hit those heights. What we have managed to do is to eke out results and stay in games. Much of that is down to squad togetherness and resilience, plus also an excellent defence: check out where we were on that front up until 6 games ago. We've missed Webster big time, Burn to a lesser extent (but that's been exacerbated by Web's absence) and Dunk has lost something.
-- broadly, our finishing hasn't been up to scratch for two seasons (with the exception of the first c20/23 games this season). That's a feature of our squad, which has changed dramatically since GP joined, and is now much younger, with far more potential (which will likely be realised), far more pace and dynamism, and with much better re-sale value. It's as much a feature of our poor return from midfield as it is on the 3 main forwards that play -- but we suffer up-front from a lack of variation that even our peers in the table (CP, Saints) comfortably beat us on.
-- I do agree on Weststander's counter-attacking point. We need to find ways of bringing the opposition on to us, and then hitting them swiftly and devastatingly. Liverpool are the masters at this, and even do it from just in (rather than deep in) their own half -- witness Diaz's goal from Matip's delightful ball -- but they've got better players, and much better finishers than us.

Good post.

I do think we’ve taken significant steps backwards this season in defence and creatively. xG and xGA prove that.

We now know why Arsenal paid £50m for BW, who looked bloody good when switched to RB for England last Saturday. Unfortunately, almost irreplaceable.

Anyone voicing any grumbles whatsoever in this thread is being labelled as an anti Potter. I’m not. Just a huge frustration with recruitment and watching a losing/drawing/goal-shy football team.

 

[Guinness Boy]

But football is weird, it has a dark arts about it, music played without knowing how the instruments got tuned. Claudio Ranieri arguably achieved one of the greatest feats in the PL era, perhaps any era, as big as Clough at Forest, and that was to win a PL title with a side spending no where near anything approaching 7 or more clubs above it. Would anyone say Claudio Ranieri is one of the greatest ever managers? I doubt it.

And it's because it's like planetary alignment, sometimes you just get the right manager in the right place with the right player personalities that deliver results far greater than the sum of their parts.

Saying Cooper following Hughton, after following Potter who followed Hughton and making conclusions from that - it doesn't really follow. Hughton isn't a bad manager for what happened a Forest, it doesn't make Potter less of a manager because Cooper took over a team he developed for a year. It might be a circle but one drawn with a crayon by a 3 year old.

So, to return to the original nonsense I was replying to, do you agree that Forest's position in The Championship would be exactly the same if they had an NSC member's old (or dead) mum in charge instead of Cooper?

 

[Bold Seagull]

So, to return to the original nonsense I was replying to, do you agree that Forest's position in The Championship would be exactly the same if they had an NSC member's old (or dead) mum in charge instead of Cooper?

You made a separate point which I replied to. Are we talking about [MENTION=34997]Your Mum[/MENTION]'s mum?

 

[sydney]

no i don't think he is , i just think he hasn't got much to work with currently , the attitude seems to be on a downer , i think we are not expecting to go down and only a few of the players actually give a shyte as it looks like a few of them are off at the end of the season , if the players cant motivate themselves to go out and win a premier league game where relegation is a possibility if they don't get their shyte together then i'm really not sure what Graham Potter can do about it , i'm pretty sure if i was on the squad and on 40 k a week i would run through brick walls for him , thats what a manager needs , he literally needs his lads to play their guts out for him every week ......looks like some of them don't have that attitude....such is life , move on , grow up .....