Hillsborough prosecutions

[Beach Seagull]

Like many Manchester United, Chelsea, Forest, West Ham, Brighton, Palace and Arsenal fans too at an FA Cup Semi Final.

But that doesn't mean that 96 of them should have failed to go home that afternoon.

Agree totally. As I said in first post I have massive sympathy for the victims / families. It was an unfortunate set of circumstances that led to so many lives being lost (as is often the case with disasters).

 

[El Presidente]

They still turn up pissed to games now, nothing has changed in that respect, but the stadia is much safer now thank god!

And the policing more enlightened

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Agree totally. As I said in first post I have massive sympathy for the victims / families. It was an unfortunate set of circumstances that led to so many lives being lost (as is often the case with disasters).

There was nothing unfortunate about it. It was unlawful.

 

[The Large One]

Am neither ignorant or a Sun reader. Just dared to express an opinion. Stand by what i said, many liverpool fans would've been late / drunk / ticketless.

... and also irrelevant to the culpability of the disaster.

 

[neilbard]

And the policing more enlightened

Agreed! But it's much easier to police it now than back then don't you agree? A different era all together we were banned from European football for 5 yrs a turbulent time for football which no one had the answer too.

 

[T soprano]

No it isn't. Fans turn up drunk every week in the season. There are confined areas in some of the older grounds like Watford and QPR.
Why aren't there deaths every week?

Why did the jury and the Coroner's court decide that the fans were unlawfully killed. I'll say it again, UNLAWFULLY KILLED.

Why have CPS lawyers decided that at least one of the charges is Manslaughter?

I scoured the internet for pic proof highlighting the inept stadium management, just look at the pen to the right moments before disaster unfolded, also the left side has massive gaps near the front compaired to middle pen

 

[Thunder Bolt]

There haven't been disasters since. Hillsborough was a unique situation where the fans were unlawfully killed. They were directed to the centre pens, when the two side pens were empty. It wasn't the fans who caused, that but police and stewards who hadn't got a clue what they were doing.

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I scoured the internet for pic proof highlighting the inept stadium management, just look at the pen to the right moments before disaster unfolded, also the left side has massive gaps near the front compaired to middle pen

Exactly the point I was making, thank you.
A lot of people died in the tunnel trying to turn round because of the crush in the middle two pens.

 

[Bwian]

Am neither ignorant or a Sun reader. Just dared to express an opinion. Stand by what i said, many liverpool fans would've been late / drunk / ticketless.

You seem to want to ignore all of the public enquiries, evidence and now the crown prosecution service. You are an idiot. Nothing less.

 

[Bwian]

There was nothing unfortunate about it. It was unlawful.

There have been idiots on NSC spouting the same shite as our new idiot. None of whom have bothered reading anything that doesn't suit their agenda of wanting to lay blame on the Liverpool fans.

 

[Bwian]

Am neither ignorant or a Sun reader. Just dared to express an opinion. Stand by what i said, many liverpool fans would've been late / drunk / ticketless.

It has been proven (if you look at all of the evidence) that there were no ticketless fans in the area. Only The Scum persisted with that pack of lies proferred by Duckenfield and embellished by McKenzie. The only people to blame for 96 deaths were the police.

 

[Bwian]

I assume that everyone who has posted on this thread is familiar with all the contents of this

https://hillsboroughinquests.independent.gov.uk/

One clearly isn't. It is quite depressing that after all of the revelations some still want to blame the fans. Now we have Sheffield Wednesday's former safety officer amongst those named by the CPS. Clearly all of the evidence is wrong and drunken ticketless fans were at fault. Unbelievable.

 

[neilbard]

Has anyone noticed how the CPS has conveniently only brought criminal charges in this case onto individuals, no corporations or government have been implicated at this moment in time.

 

[Albion 4ever]

Because I live in the real world and I know that football fans will turn up drunk and as late as they can.

In the previous link I posted, the design of the stadium and number of turnstiles meant that either of the following had to happen to let the 10,100 ticket holders into the Leppings Lane End:
Delay kick off until at least 3:40pm. David Duckenfield ruled this out.
Or that Liverpool fans had to start entering the turnstiles at a substantial rate for 2 hours to let them all in.

How many of us would turn up and stand on a terrace a full 2 hours before kick off?

 

[Tooting Gull]

Certainly interesting no organisations have yet to face charges. You'd have thought South Yorks Police, West Midlands Police, the FA, Sheffield Wednesday, even the Ambulance Service (who were heavily criticised) and Sheffield City Council might all have been worried.

I don't quite understand the logic that the 'new' Sheff Wed company are not considered a 'successor' organisation and therefore beyond any legal action, but they may not have been charged anyway.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Whilst I have massive sympathy for those who lost their lives and their loved one's, to totally exonerate Liverpool fans of any blame on the day is extremely misguided. Can they all honestly say they turned up in plenty of time for kick off, stone cold sober and all in possession of tickets? That I very much doubt. The Police did not cover themselves in glory and clearly panicked, hence opening the gates to the Leppings Lane end, the fault does not rest entirely with the Police. It was a disaster waiting to happen, some blame should be apportioned to all participants. Lessons have been learnt, changes implemented. No sense or fairness in going after blood now.

Disasters have happened at football grounds before. Like i said and i stand by what i said to 'totally exenorate' the liverpool fans of any blame is misguided. Football fans will by nature often turn up late and drunk.

Am neither ignorant or a Sun reader. Just dared to express an opinion. Stand by what i said, many liverpool fans would've been late / drunk / ticketless.

You are ignorant. Ignorant of all the findings, all the results of the court cases, enquiries to date.

I'll make it simple, as others have done, no one is disputing some fans may have been drunk, late or ticketless, what has been PROVED, by the various enquiries, painstakingly trawling through hours of CCTV second by second, expert and witness testimony, is that none of the fans actions contributed to the disaster. NONE of their actions.

It was a semi final, of course there would have been excitement, passion, there would have been beers before hand, BUT there was not a single bit of evidence to say any of the behaviour made any contribution to the tragedy. They are completely and utterly exonerated, you are completely and utterly wrong. They were entitled to turn up for a football match, have a couple of beers and still expect to be safe.

Actions of the authorities not only cost the lives of 96 people, they tried to cover up their deeds for decades. No sense or fairness going after justice - what twisted world do you honestly live in?

 

[The Large One]

Certainly interesting no organisations have yet to face charges. You'd have thought South Yorks Police, West Midlands Police, the FA, Sheffield Wednesday, even the Ambulance Service (who were heavily criticised) and Sheffield City Council might all have been worried.

I don't quite understand the logic that the 'new' Sheff Wed company are not considered a 'successor' organisation and therefore beyond any legal action, but they may not have been charged anyway.

I'd suspect that it would have to be shown that all of the organisations you mentioned would have to be seen to be complicit in their respective negligence. I'm surprised it's as few as six people to be charged (though I suspect it would be more but for the subsequent deaths of those who would've been charged).

Individuals were alleged to be negligent, of course, but - let's take SYP as an example - while certain senior officers may well have failed in their duty, it doesn't necessarily follow that the force as a whole was institutionally culpable. Especially given that, for example, junior officers had their statements altered without their knowledge.

 

[Tooting Gull]

I'd suspect that it would have to be shown that all of the organisations you mentioned would have to be seen to be complicit in their respective negligence. I'm surprised it's as few as six people to be charged (though I suspect it would be more but for the subsequent deaths of those who would've been charged).

Individuals were alleged to be negligent, of course, but - let's take SYP as an example - while certain senior officers may well have failed in their duty, it doesn't necessarily follow that the force as a whole was institutionally culpable. Especially given that, for example, junior officers had their statements altered without their knowledge.

I'm sure you're right, and that is why it is harder to get enough evidence on an organisation for a reasonable chance of a conviction - even if a lot of junior officers DID know their statements were being altered. But I don't pretend it would have been easy to speak up and rock the boat for junior officers, their careers would have been over. They should never have been pressured to do so.

 

[The Large One]

I'm sure you're right, and that is why it is harder to get enough evidence on an organisation for a reasonable chance of a conviction - even if a lot of junior officers DID know their statements were being altered. But I don't pretend it would have been easy to speak up and rock the boat for junior officers, their careers would have been over. They should never have been pressured to do so.

Which is why I'm surprised just three people are being done for perverting the course of justice. Was it really just those three who did that?

How much political pressure was brought to bear? It's not as if elements in Westminster didn't know what was going on.

 

[sir albion]

You are ignorant. Ignorant of all the findings, all the results of the court cases, enquiries to date.

I'll make it simple, as others have done, no one is disputing some fans may have been drunk, late or ticketless, what has been PROVED, by the various enquiries, painstakingly trawling through hours of CCTV second by second, expert and witness testimony, is that none of the fans actions contributed to the disaster. NONE of their actions.

It was a semi final, of course there would have been excitement, passion, there would have been beers before hand, BUT there was not a single bit of evidence to say any of the behaviour made any contribution to the tragedy. They are completely and utterly exonerated, you are completely and utterly wrong. They were entitled to turn up for a football match, have a couple of beers and still expect to be safe.

Actions of the authorities not only cost the lives of 96 people, they tried to cover up their deeds for decades. No sense or fairness going after justice - what twisted world do you honestly live in?

So you saying that the cheif wanted 96 people dead when he decided to let them in?He took a split decision to open the gates and to be frank there could have been 1000 or more ticketless fans barging through.If the fences wearnt there things would be completely different.

IT just doesn't seem right to blame the police for everything and the pressure to punish someone or someone's has been immense.

To me it's a terrible terrible tragedy that could have happened numerous times in those days....

 

[Thunder Bolt]

So you saying that the cheif wanted 96 people dead when he decided to let them in?He took a split decision to open the gates and to be frank there could have been 1000 or more ticketless fans barging through.If the fences wearnt there things would be completely different.

IT just doesn't seem right to blame the police for everything and the pressure to punish someone or someone's has been immense.

To me it's a terrible terrible tragedy that could have happened numerous times in those days....

Don't be silly.