Help required - I am in very serious danger of voting Tory next year.

[Dandyman]

Hmm.. So alongside such quotes as "can eradicate from my heart a deep-burning hatred of the Tory party", you're not biased at all then?

I'm totally biased in favour of working people and against their class enemies if that's the answer you're looking for.

 

[Fran Hagarty]

. "No amount of cajolery, and no attempts at ethical or social seduction, can eradicate from my heart a deep-burning hatred of the Tory party. So far as I am concerned, they are lower than vermin."

- Nye Bevan ( the best PM this country never had).

Agree with that! I am ashamed to admit that, in my younger years, I voted for them! No way would I ever do so again!

 

[Fran Hagarty]

And one last argument. If you live where I do voting Tory means voting for Nicholas Soames - a fat buffoon who owes everything he has in life not to talent but the fact that he happens to be Churchill's grandson.

Don't do it.

Too right! And he Enjoys "country pursuits" which includes being very much pro hunting. For that reason alone (but there are many others!) I would not vote for him - I am in his constituency too

 

[Meade's Ball]

The one time i voted was to get rid of the Tory party. Since then, no party has represented my views enough to receive my vote. My say is too valuable to be swallowed up by a candidate who is the least worst. But if i thought the Tories would return, i'd do all in my power to stop it.
I may vote LibDem. They have the advantage of being far enough from power to retain their honesty.
I hate Blair for acting like a Tory. So why anyone would want to replace him with the real thing is beyond me.

Voting almost seems obselete

 

[Simster]

I may vote LibDem. They have the advantage of being far enough from power to retain their honesty.

You reckon? Labour have pissed away a landslide majority by not listening to the people, yet The Tories are such a shambles that they've resorted to a slimy voter loser like Michael Howard to run the show. They're unelectable to massive proportion of the population. The LibDems could easily pick up a massive slice of disaffected voters and hold the balance of power. And I REALLY hope they do.

I'll vote for anybody who believes in capitalism with a conscience, rather than any particular party. That rules out the Tory party at any point in my lifetime and this Labour government which is the poodle of big business and that unbelievably thick twat in charge over the pond.

 

[Soton Seagull]

MB you are saying that your vote is too valuable to use on weak candidates. It is worth absolutely nothing if not used. If people don't want to vote, lets all have a nice dictatorship then shall we?

I don't think it is too much to get off our arses once every 4 years to vote.

 

[Mr C]

Most of the arguments people seem to be coming up with are based on a historical opinion (rightly or wrongly, depending on your location and circumstances).

What about the current Conservative ethics of hard-work, freedom, right to self-govern, less interference, and choice?

So some mistakes have been made in the past. Michael Howard has matured, and has developed. If everyone cast their vote based on history, Labour would never have got in again!!

New Labour has overseen a general apathy towards politics, which I think is very very sad, as it is what governs our day-to-day lives

 

[Brixtaan]

You might have to vote Tory because there won't be any Labour party if we don't get F*lmer.

 

[Mr C]

MB you are saying that your vote is too valuable to use on weak candidates. It is worth absolutely nothing if not used. If people don't want to vote, lets all have a nice dictatorship then shall we?

I don't think it is too much to get off our arses once every 4 years to vote.

A box that says "None of the above" might be an idea.

 

[Mr C]

You might have to vote Tory because there won't be any Labour party if we don't get F*lmer.

Suits me.

About being no Labour party that is, not not getting Falmer

 

[king Wombat]

tory boy mr c you are talking nonsense with all due respect.

'current Conservative ethics of hard-work, freedom, right to self-govern, less interference, and choice' -

these have always been the alleged ethics of the tory party. not seeing anything new there.

Simply saying that they've changed and now are willing to listen to the electorate doesnt really count for much in my book. specially when it would appear that they are going to run 95% of their next election campaign on Europe, oh and they're going to cut taxes ...

The tories legacy was:
1) A completely ruined Traffic system.
2) A NHS system that will take at least 10 -15 years to sort out.
3) an education system that had disintegrated into a complete mess.
4) A boom/bust economy


er no thanks. not exactly enamoured with labour but could never vote for the tores.

 

[Simster]

Most of the arguments people seem to be coming up with are based on a historical opinion (rightly or wrongly, depending on your location and circumstances).

What about the current Conservative ethics of hard-work, freedom, right to self-govern, less interference, and choice?

Yeah I can see why you'd want the Tories elected on *current* manifesto patter - because let's face it, their track record looks a bit shabby doesn't it.

That'll be the "hard work" ethic that Thatcher imposed on the miners by closing all the mines down, ignoring the fact that it was cheaper for the country to subsidise the mines than pay for all that dole benefit.
That'll be the right to self-govern which the Tories never managed to complete in 17 years of rule.
That'll be the less interference that forced our manufacturing base to the wall because the government stood by and let it die because it was uncompetitive, the repercussions of which are still being felt.

But fair play - your points on freedom and choice are proven with the Tories...as long as you can afford it.

 

[Mr C]

tory boy mr c you are talking nonsense with all due respect.

'current Conservative ethics of hard-work, freedom, right to self-govern, less interference, and choice' -

these have always been the alleged ethics of the tory party. not seeing anything new there.

Simply saying that they've changed and now are willing to listen to the electorate doesnt really count for much in my book. specially when it would appear that they are going to run 95% of their next election campaign on Europe, oh and they're going to cut taxes ...

The tories legacy was:
1) A completely ruined Traffic system.
2) A NHS system that will take at least 10 -15 years to sort out.
3) an education system that had disintegrated into a complete mess.
4) A boom/bust economy


er no thanks. not exactly enamoured with labour but could never vote for the tores.

Tory boy?? Well, good way to start your argument I guess.

I was restating the Conservative ideals of hard-work, freedom etc because a lot of people on here have been going on about history, and things that happened twenty years ago. No-one was thinking about them, and as they are key points in the party's thinking, I felt it necessary to bring them up.

I am not denying that the Tories in 1997 were jaded, had run out of ideas, and perhaps needed a "break". Yes they have changed. People do. It doesn't mean they lose their core principles though. And I don't think they're going to run 95% of their campaign on Europe - that was William Hague's mistake. But Europe is an important part of UK life and it should be given appropriate airtime in politics.

Cut taxes? Well, yes, that is a fundamental Tory principle. Do you have a problem with that then?

So, Tory legacies.....

1) Completely ruined traffic system? I assume you're referring to the road network here? Well, an increase in the number of cars has not helped, but I haven't seen much improvement in the last seven years, have you?

2) NHS. 10-15 years to sort out. Well, everyone has a political opinion based on their life situation, and on comparison I think the NHS is far worse off under Labour than it ever was pre-97. Blair has now had half his "repair time", as you say, and he's messed it up badly. Well, things can only get better, as he said. He's all talk - it'll only get worse, and as mentioned, I don't think it was that bad in the first place.

3) Education. Complete mess? Explain.

4) Boom/bust economy. Right, so that's why we've got the 4th largest economy in the world, and it's at its strongest for many years?

Hope I managed to answer everything! My fingers are sore now

 

[Mr C]

Yeah I can see why you'd want the Tories elected on *current* manifesto patter - because let's face it, their track record looks a bit shabby doesn't it.

That'll be the "hard work" ethic that Thatcher imposed on the miners by closing all the mines down, ignoring the fact that it was cheaper for the country to subsidise the mines than pay for all that dole benefit.
That'll be the right to self-govern which the Tories never managed to complete in 17 years of rule.
That'll be the less interference that forced our manufacturing base to the wall because the government stood by and let it die because it was uncompetitive, the repercussions of which are still being felt.

But fair play - your points on freedom and choice are proven with the Tories...as long as you can afford it.

So you don't think the current Conservative administration has learned from some of these mistakes? I cannot comment on the miners issue as I do not know enough about it to be honest. Give me a few days then perhaps i shall come at it from a more informed point

 

[Wozza]

Voting just encourages the fuckers.

 

[beorhthelm]

This debate always misses the point. Not one of you has seen the solution, in fact continued to compound the problem.

Why vote Conservative or Labour or Lib Dem or Monster Raving Loony. Why not be novel and VOTE FOR THE f***ing CANDIDATE.

seriously. why does everyone get so hung up on the party. It should jsut be an indication of the persons general politics, which side of the fence they are most likly to fall on. Parliment would be more powerfull as the MPs wouldnt feel they have to faithfully follow the party line. If we started to actually pay attention to what individual candidate said and stood for and voted accordingly, this mess would be half way to getting cleaned up.

 

[¤DãŃn¥ §êãGüLL¤]

I will be voting for the first time at the next elections and I ain't got a f***ing clue who to give it to. Anyone

Green. I'll take you to the polling booth hand in hand.

 

[bhaexpress]

So you want to vote Tory, do you think that'll make a difference ?

 

[Lady Bracknell]

I couldn't improve on Mr Bevan's summary. The day that I find myself even vaguely considering voting Tory is the day I go get my father's gun. And ask someone to shoot me with it!

Equally, I didn't vote Labour to see them support an immoral war and get wedged firmly up Dubya's arse. And thinking back to the joyous celebrations of 1997 when 18 years of misrule came landslidingly to an end, I'm saddened to see what "New" - and electable - Labour has actually meant in practice.

So what do you do? I can't see myself back on the campaign trail for the Communist Party of Great Britain (Marxist-Leninist Branch) since I went AWOL about 30 years ago and still owe them a couple of copies of Mao's Little Red Book. But the Socialist Workers make you sell newspapers at the station, the Greens are too fond of herbal tea and squabbling and the Lib Dem "Dog Poo Before Dogma" stuff leaves me absolutely cold. As for any of the anti-European Raving Loony Parties like UKIP, forget it!

I'm getting very tempted by Bob "New Bob Just like the Old Bob" Dobbs though....

 

[London Irish]

I will be voting Labour without the slightest hesitation, far more than that I'll be pounding the streets delivering leaflets and canvassing for them too. The "New Labour" phase is nearly over now and soon (within 5 years) we'll be led by a John Smith-type social democrat like Gordon Brown. Then, after that, I'll be backing the People's Ken to come through in about 8/10 year's time.......

Yes, I hate Blair and his New Labour clique, but I'm not stupid enough to be blinded by that and think the Labour Government have acheived nothing. On the contrary, this government have invested far more in the NHS and the education system than the Tories ever would or ever will. The rate of Thatcherite privatisation of the public services hasn't been stalled completely, but it has been drastically slowed.

On the issues of health and education, the privatising rightwing agenda of Michael Howard should be enough ALONE to persuade anyone to vote Labour just to keep the Tories out.

But Labour have done far more than that - the minimum wage has already been mentioned, there is also greater welfare initiatives directed to those who need it, such as family tax credits, and greater maternity and paternity rights and benefits. On a range of social issues Blair has done OK, ending the homophobic Section 28 agenda of the Tories and making some progress to root out racism in the police force.

A huge issue for me has been the easing of the onslaught against trade unions with new rights to belong to one. The media industry I work in is now experiencing rapid trade union growth, with fat cat employers being forced to negotiate fairer deals with their staff DIRECTLY because of Blair's trade union legislation.

There is no doubt that the Liberal Democrats' general election manifesto will dovetail more closely with my political views. But the Lib Dems are opportunists cut from the same cloth as New Labour, they advance political issues more for "product differentiation" purposes rather than any deep-seated political principle.

You just have to look at Simon Hughes' disgusting red-baiting mayoral campaign against Ken Livingstone in London to judge their credentials as a progressive party - and Hughes like Baker is one of the better Lib Dems! If the Lib Dems ever got any power, they would be just as vacuous and unprincipled as any Blairite stooge, blown this way and that way by political expediency. The Lib Dems also are as anti-trade union as most mainstream Tories. So no thanks.

As for the many and various small left-wing parties to the left of Labour, they are all pissing in the wind and have been for about 100 years. They would be better off helping those socialists and trade unionists exerting pressure and influence within the mainstream labour movement.

So Labour for me, but the overwhelming problem with this thread is the assumption that democracy is just placing a cross on a ballot paper every 4/5 years. You will always get terrible politicians representing you if that is the extent of your involvement in the political process.

Democracy is about far more than that, it is also about shaping and pressurising our political lords and masters ON A CONSTANT BASIS, day in, day out, week in, week out. Think about these issues once every 5 years, and you're f***ed before you start.

Lastly.......

Voting just encourages the fuckers.

........glib, dated cop-outs like this which only encourage apathy and disengagement from the party political process ironically help machine politicians everywhere to escape the accountability from the electorate that they richly deserve.