Gaza / Israel

[dingodan]

Like these anti-Semitic chaps

http://webarchives.cdlib.org/wayback.public/NYUL_ag_7/20090726192409/http://www.jatonyc.org/

I was being unserious.

 

[dingodan]

Yep. Thank god England is not surrounded by all those warmongering Arab countries..... no wonder they have to be on their guard against those backward ideologies.

Yeh, thank goodness for nations of peace, like ours.

 

[BadFish]

I was being unserious.

yes I got that! I was joining you #wrong choice of smilie

 

[dingodan]

yes I got that! I was joining you #wrong choice of smilie

Ah. In which case.

 

[Wozza]

It's hard to pick a side to support in this, like watching Chelsea v Man Utd.

 

[Soulman]

Yeh, thank goodness for nations of peace, like ours.

Well have a look at countries that we are not involved in. Somalia, Libya, Yemen, Syria etc, all trouble war areas, all with the same religious denominator.
We have no trouble in England from Jews, Sikhs, Buddhists, Hindus etc.... just one religion, which is causing trouble in Malmo/Sweden, Paris/France, Germany... even in Southern (Buddhist) Thailand.
Israel is just looking after its own, if they really wanted they could wipe Gaza and the Palestinians off the map. Maybe Hamas should have refrained from sending 120 rockets into Israel last Saturday.

 

[BadFish]

Well have a look at countries that we are not involved in. Somalia, Libya, Yemen, Syria etc, all trouble war areas, all with the same religious denominator.
We have no trouble in England from Jews, Sikhs, Buddhists, Hindus etc.... just one religion, which is causing trouble in Malmo/Sweden, Paris/France, Germany... even in Southern (Buddhist) Thailand.
Israel is just looking after its own, if they really wanted they could wipe Gaza and the Palestinians off the map. Maybe Hamas should have refrained from sending 120 rockets into Israel last Saturday.

They are doing a pretty good job of this so far. And lets not make any bones about it they do want to wipe them off the map...... that is their entire intention.

"We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves."

Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.

"We must do everything to ensure they [the Palestinian refugees] never do return."

David Ben-Gurion, in his diary, 18 July 1948, quoted in Michael Bar Zohar's Ben-Gurion: the Armed Prophet, Prentice-Hall, 1967, p. 157.

slightly off topic but maybe relevant to this thread


"If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"

David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.

 

[BadFish]

http://www.bintjbeil.com/E/occupation/mandella.html


A Letter from Nelson Mandela to Thomas Friedman


by Arjan El Fassed (Media Monitors Network)

March 30, 2001

To: Thomas L. Friedman (columnist New York Times)
From: Nelson Mandela (former President South Africa)

Dear Thomas,

I know that you and I long for peace in the Middle East, but before you continue to talk about necessary conditions from an Israeli perspective, you need to know what's on my mind. Where to begin? How about 1964. Let me quote my own words during my trial. They are true today as they were then:

"I have fought against white domination and I have fought against black domination. I have cherished the ideal of a democratic and free society in which all persons live together in harmony and with equal opportunities. It is an ideal which I hope to live for and to achieve. But if needs be, it is an ideal for which I am prepared to die."

Today the world, black and white, recognise that apartheid has no future. In South Africa it has been ended by our own decisive mass action in order to build peace and security. That mass campaign of defiance and other actions could only culminate in the establishment of democracy.

Perhaps it is strange for you to observe the situation in Palestine or more specifically, the structure of political and cultural relationships between Palestinians and Israelis, as an apartheid system. This is because you incorrectly think that the problem of Palestine began in 1967. This was demonstrated in your recent column "Bush's First Memo" in the New York Times on March 27, 2001.

You seem to be surprised to hear that there are still problems of 1948 to be solved, the most important component of which is the right to return of Palestinian refugees.

The Palestinian-Israeli conflict is not just an issue of military occupation and Israel is not a country that was established "normally" and happened to occupy another country in 1967. Palestinians are not struggling for a "state" but for freedom, liberation and equality, just like we were struggling for freedom in South Africa.

In the last few years, and especially during the reign of the Labour Party, Israel showed that it was not even willing to return what it occupied in 1967; that settlements remain, Jerusalem would be under exclusive Israeli sovereignty, and Palestinians would not have an independent state, but would be under Israeli economic domination with Israeli control of borders, land, air, water and sea.

Israel was not thinking of a "state" but of "separation". The value of separation is measured in terms of the ability of Israel to keep the Jewish state Jewish, and not to have a Palestinian minority that could have the opportunity to become a majority at some time in the future. If this takes place, it would force Israel to either become a secular democratic or bi-national state, or to turn into a state of apartheid not only de facto, but also de jure.

Thomas, if you follow the polls in Israel for the last 30 or 40 years, you clearly find a vulgar racism that includes a third of the population who openly declare themselves to be racist. This racism is of the nature of "I hate Arabs" and "I wish Arabs would be dead". If you also follow the judicial system in Israel you will see there is discrimination against
Palestinians, and if you further consider the 1967 occupied territories you will find there are already two judicial systems in operation that represent two different approaches to human life: one for Palestinian life and the other for Jewish life. Additionally there are two different approaches to property and to land. Palestinian property is not recognised as private property because it can be confiscated.

As to the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, there is an additional factor. The so-called "Palestinian autonomous areas" are bantustans. These are restricted entities within the power structure of the Israeli apartheid system.

The Palestinian state cannot be the by-product of the Jewish state, just in order to keep the Jewish purity of Israel. Israel's racial discrimination is daily life of most Palestinians. Since Israel is a Jewish state, Israeli Jews are able to accrue special rights which non-Jews cannot do. Palestinian Arabs have no place in a "Jewish" state.

Apartheid is a crime against humanity. Israel has deprived millions of Palestinians of their liberty and property. It has perpetuated a system of gross racial discrimination and inequality. It has systematically incarcerated and tortured thousands of Palestinians, contrary to the rules of international law. It has, in particular, waged a war against a civilian population, in particular children.

The responses made by South Africa to human rights abuses emanating from the removal policies and apartheid policies respectively, shed light on what Israeli society must necessarily go through before one can speak of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East and an end to its apartheid policies.

Thomas, I'm not abandoning Mideast diplomacy. But I'm not going to indulge you the way your supporters do. If you want peace and democracy, I will support you. If you want formal apartheid, we will not support you. If you want to support racial discrimination and ethnic cleansing, we will oppose you. When you figure out what you're about, give me a call.

 

[Soulman]

Quote "They are doing a pretty good job of this so far. And lets not make any bones about it they do want to wipe them off the map...... that is their entire intention."

As i said, they could of wiped them off the map years ago, but they have not...... meanwhile Israel has been pummeled by rockets (some 1200) for years.
Seems to me that things seem fairly quiet until Hamas start launching rockets into Israel. Last Saturday for instance.... then the retaliation begins.
Getting rid of the Islamic terror regime that was installed by Hamas and sponsored by the Mullah regime in Tehran is the only path to liberation for the people in Gaza.

 

[BadFish]

Quote "They are doing a pretty good job of this so far. And lets not make any bones about it they do want to wipe them off the map...... that is their entire intention."

As i said, they could of wiped them off the map years ago, but they have not...... meanwhile Israel has been pummeled by rockets (some 1200) for years.
Seems to me that things seem fairly quiet until Hamas start launching rockets into Israel. Last Saturday for instance.... then the retaliation begins.
Getting rid of the Islamic terror regime that was installed by Hamas and sponsored by the Mullah regime in Tehran is the only path to liberation for the people in Gaza.

I think you should have a look at what has been done by the Israelis to the Palestinians. 12,000 rockets will pale into insignificancem (1200 rockets have hit Gaza in the last three days alone).

htthttp://guardian.150m.com/palestine/conquest-timeline.htmp://

not even mentioning the Un resolutions that have been broken by Israel

http://salemshalom.blogspot.com.au/2007/12/heres-list-of-u.html

 

[Soulman]

I think you should have a look at what has been done by the Israelis to the Palestinians. 12,000 rockets will pale into insignificancem (1200 rockets have hit Gaza in the last three days alone).

htthttp://guardian.150m.com/palestine/conquest-timeline.htmp://

not even mentioning the Un resolutions that have been broken by Israel

http://salemshalom.blogspot.com.au/2007/12/heres-list-of-u.html

Hmmm. Firstly i do not take what the Guardian prints very seriously. i suppose i could bring up many clips/videos that show the other story.
I believe that Iran also said that they wanted "Israel wiped off the face of the earth"... and many of the surrounding countries want the same.
So if the Palestinians are so poor, where is the military backing coming from?
Hamas are banned in this country, but still have rallies, with the flag flying.
As i stated, if Israel were that bad, they could have wiped Gaza off the map, as if your post stated, that Israel have had it in for them since 1983.
So they retaliate more forcibly when attacked, as seen after last Saturday.
Have you looked at how the Muslims who live in Israel feel about what Hamas are doing in Gaza.
I guess we both have different opinions, just to say that i feel any weakness from Israel..... and the surrounding unstable Arab countries surrounding them will latch on quickly.
I think if Hamas stopped lobbing in rockets, then peace might prevail, as it has before in similar circumstances.
Still we can differ on opinions though.

 

[GNF on Tour]

Hmmm. Firstly i do not take what the Guardian prints very seriously. i suppose i could bring up many clips/videos that show the other story.
I believe that Iran also said that they wanted "Israel wiped off the face of the earth"... and many of the surrounding countries want the same.
So if the Palestinians are so poor, where is the military backing coming from?
Hamas are banned in this country, but still have rallies, with the flag flying.
As i stated, if Israel were that bad, they could have wiped Gaza off the map, as if your post stated, that Israel have had it in for them since 1983.
So they retaliate more forcibly when attacked, as seen after last Saturday.
Have you looked at how the Muslims who live in Israel feel about what Hamas are doing in Gaza.
I guess we both have different opinions, just to say that i feel any weakness from Israel..... and the surrounding unstable Arab countries surrounding them will latch on quickly.
I think if Hamas stopped lobbing in rockets, then peace might prevail, as it has before in similar circumstances.
Still we can differ on opinions though.

Strange post.
Most people regardless of political affiliation would regard the Guardian as a "serious" newspaper, what would you regard as serious, Horse & Hound?
As for your comments about Palastinians and poverty, thats just plain naive, sorry.
But your right, peace might stand a slight chance if Hamas stopped firing rockets, but only if the Israeli's stopped bombing the Gaza Strip willy-nilly, Oh and GIVING THEIR f***ing LAND BACK might also help!

 

[Soulman]

Strange post.
Most people regardless of political affiliation would regard the Guardian as a "serious" newspaper, what would you regard as serious, Horse & Hound?
As for your comments about Palastinians and poverty, thats just plain naive, sorry.
But your right, peace might stand a slight chance if Hamas stopped firing rockets, but only if the Israeli's stopped bombing the Gaza Strip willy-nilly, Oh and GIVING THEIR f***ing LAND BACK might also help!

I said i don't take "what the Guardian prints very seriously".... not that it is not a "serious" paper. It prints fairly biased stuff (like other tabloids) which i mainly disagree with.
I believe that if you go way back in history then Gaza was Israel's "f***ing land".... as you so put it.

 

[BadFish]

I said i don't take "what the Guardian prints very seriously".... not that it is not a "serious" paper. It prints fairly biased stuff (like other tabloids) which i mainly disagree with.
I believe that if you go way back in history then Gaza was Israel's "f***ing land".... as you so put it.

At which point in history was this? I await your reference with interest.

 

[Soulman]

Because no other peoples had ever established a national homeland in "Palestine" since the Jews had done it 2,000 YEARS BEFORE, the British "looked favorably" upon the creation of a Jewish National Homeland throughout ALL of Palestine. The Jews had already begun mass immigration into Palestine in the 1880's in an effort to rid the land of swamps and malaria and prepare for the rebirth of Israel. This Jewish effort to revitalize the land attracted an equally large immigration of Arabs from neighboring areas who were drawn by employment opportunities and healthier living conditions. There was never any attempt to "rid" the area of what few indigenous Arabs there were or those Arab masses that immigrated into this area along with the Jews!
History of Israel and Palestine in VERY Easy To Understand Maps

 

[8ace]

I'll back Israel to the hilt.

This.

 

[BadFish]

Because no other peoples had ever established a national homeland in "Palestine" since the Jews had done it 2,000 YEARS BEFORE, the British "looked favorably" upon the creation of a Jewish National Homeland throughout ALL of Palestine. The Jews had already begun mass immigration into Palestine in the 1880's in an effort to rid the land of swamps and malaria and prepare for the rebirth of Israel. This Jewish effort to revitalize the land attracted an equally large immigration of Arabs from neighboring areas who were drawn by employment opportunities and healthier living conditions. There was never any attempt to "rid" the area of what few indigenous Arabs there were or those Arab masses that immigrated into this area along with the Jews!
History of Israel and Palestine in VERY Easy To Understand Maps

and you are criticizing the Guardian as a reference?



My apologies I have just realised that you are saying that no-one has really had a decent claim to palestine since the Jews 200 years ago. This claim is based on the fact that God had given them the land as his chosen people....which is great if there are quote your particular God or indeed you beleive in god.

Here is what the first Israli Prime Minister had t say about that

"If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"

David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.

 

[Soulman]

and you are criticizing the Guardian as a reference?

From 1517 to 1917 most of this area remained under the rule of the Ottoman Empire.

History of Palestine and Palestinians

As your link states "recent history". As was stated in mine "over 2000 years ago".
The Jewish Claim To The Land Of Israel

 

[Mr Terrific]

As your link states "recent history". As was stated in mine "over 2000 years ago".
The Jewish Claim To The Land Of Israel

Jewish Virtual Library...nice unbiased source you've got there.

 

[jaywalker]

Many of my favourite comics are Jews- The Marx bros for a start. I don't know any Muslim comics who Dare laugh at Islam !!