deletebeepbeepbeep
Well-known member
- May 12, 2009
- 21,765
I think whatever the side of the fence you are on we can all agree Cameron's deal is pretty hopeless.
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Europe: In or Out
- Thread starter The Rivet
- Start date
Blue Valkyrie
Not seen such Bravery!
Not true.
melias shoes
Well-known member
- Oct 14, 2010
- 4,830
Correct. Not worth a ****.
melias shoes
Well-known member
- Oct 14, 2010
- 4,830
It'll certainly be worth anyone who wants to leave EU telling everyone it's not worth the paper it's written on, regardless of the content
Worthless.
D
Deleted member 22389
Guest
Doesn't this just show you the levels of bureaucracy within the EU, all this BS with our Prime Minister going back and forth to Brussels just to get something simple done, isn't this also a clear indication of how much of our own power we have lost.
melias shoes
Well-known member
- Oct 14, 2010
- 4,830
Absolutely. The 'Deal' is probably already done but there dragging it out so it looks like that everyone fought their corner. You know got the best 'Deal' for their country. Complete B.S..
melias shoes
Well-known member
- Oct 14, 2010
- 4,830
Absolutely. The 'Deal' is probably already done but they're dragging it out so it looks like that everyone fought their corner. You know got the best 'Deal' for their country. Complete B.S..
deletebeepbeepbeep
Well-known member
- May 12, 2009
- 21,765
Cameron's negotiations are a sideshow to appease his critics within the Conservative party, you would have to be pretty naive to believe it will make one shed of difference to migration levels.
Blue Valkyrie
Not seen such Bravery!
You can throw insults like 'naive' about, but my point still stands that it isn't true that we all agree that Cameron's deal has been 'pretty hopeless'.
- Thread starter
- #1,250
It's only an insult if it is not true because otherwise it is a truth. Opinions differ.
Blue Valkyrie
Not seen such Bravery!
Calling someone naive is an insult, is it not ?
pastafarian
Well-known member
Having just watched on different news channels,various EU politicians and big business leaders argue the toss over the EU summit and how people are working furiously to get a good deal to keep the EU intact,I have firmly come to the conclusion many of them seem to have forgotten about our little referendum.
They whole thing has the air of a complete sham,especially when the deal proposal is utterly laughable.
pastafarian
Well-known member
- Thread starter
- #1,254
I guess the recipient would think that but the observer might not. Just an objective view of it. No side taken, honestly...
My guess is the deals will be done, the referendum over.......and the deals will be taken away.
I can hear it now:
Dave "Well Angie, are you and your other subjects going to agree to my fairly weak demands?"
Angie "Schweinhund Herr Cameron"
Dave "Now now Angie, no dog just a pig involved, i'm sure you and the French bloke can convince the others to agree, after all we can give them a few billion more"
Angie " Vot eef ve sign ze deals, Herr Bullington boot boy, vot eez in it for us ze rulers of Europe and Charles Aznovoice and his followers?"
Dave " Well my beautiful Frau, the UK citizens will swallow my patter, and will vote to stay in, which is what you want....then you and that French bloke and the others can
change your minds and we are back where we were"
Angie " Vot is in it for you Herr Cameron, when the UK people realise vot you have done"
Dave " Well oh great one, i will resign and become like Tony Blair, making millions and be given plum jobs by you, the French bloke and the others for keeping the UK in this
EU superstate"
Angie " Wunderbar Herr Cameron, vas is good"
JC Footy Genius
Bringer of TRUTH
- Jun 9, 2015
- 10,568
Indeed .. a point worth repeating!
Can't wait for the 'deal of the century' presentation to begin, swiftly moving on to project fear.
brighton fella
New member
- Mar 20, 2009
- 1,645
like it. absolutely true as well.- Jan 18, 2009
- 4,874
This financial benefit from migrants narrative is tiresome because it's patently not true. If immigratation equals wealth then why does the most capitalist country in the world, which was built on immigratation has strict immigration controls? Once anyone can just go there and work then you (and others who make the same point) may have a point.
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...ezed-middle-increasingly-dependent-state.html
Plus, recent studies show that to be a net taxpayer to the Govt you need to be earning circa £40k, and this is well beyond the vast majority of immigrants arriving here from poorer countries.
Marty___Mcfly
I see your wicked plan - I’m a junglist.
- Sep 14, 2011
- 2,251
I'm not sure where Cam has got the basis of his deal from. Who decided these issues were the important things we need to change? Most of what he's talking about sounds petty to me, it feels pretty tokenistic.
Maybe he thought that his main reasons for staying in (e.g. the big businesses who fund his party want to stay in, his desire for political power, his love of turning up at EU get togethers to affirm his own position on the global stage etc.. ) won't really inspire voters, so he's sat back and thought- 'what do those normal people out there care about? Oh yeah, I remember, they hate immigrants and they hate immigrants claiming benefits. I'll go over there and negotiate some deal that makes it look like I'm sorting that out. Then the bloody idiots will vote to stay in.'
The funny thing is that in trying to out together this 'red herring' strategy; he has just walked into a situation which for many will just reaffirm their concerns about the EU. We're watching lots of career politicians get together on their expenses paid three course meal lifestyle, arguing about things they will never agree on, and Cam is going to have to come back and report that most of what he said we 'must' have secured for him to support us staying in, he can't get agreement on, and the stuff he has got agreement on is massively watered down and won't actually be formally confirmed for months and months. He's backed himself in to a corner- even if nothing is agreed he is going to have to come back and tell us it's a massive success.
I'm sure he'll put a spin on it but funnily enough the first people he will have to treat as idiots and BS his way in to convincing them he's suddenly made the EU deal perfect for us will be his own party. I wonder if they'll swallow it.
The benefits thing is odd, as I understand it Cam is trying to negotiate an 'emergency brake' whereby a country in financial crisis where the benefits that country pays to non-native EU citizens has got to such a high amount it is a major factor in that financial crisis (i.e. the benefits being paid are part of the cause of the 'emergency'). Well, I'm not sure we are in an economic emergency (I keep hearing that we're the 5th biggest economy in the world and we are one of the worlds richest), and whilst I haven't seen any figures I would have thought these benefits are relative small fry in the bigger picture. So if he does negotiate such a measure, I really can't see how we would be eligible to activate it. Maybe it would be more suited to a country like Greece which is in real financial trouble.
Most of the talk seems to be around big businesses telling us they want to stay in because they will make more money, and about immigration and benefits. The first point won't pull at many people's heart strings given the constant stories in the press about corrupt practices and tax dodging from pretty much are every major company. On the second two points- if you do really have a problem them I'm assuming you would vote 'out' as this will have the greatest impact, if you are ambivalent or pro-immigration, Cam making this deal won't be a determining factor.
The bigger issues such as democracy, human rights etc haven't seemed to get much airtime. These issues could push people one way or the other. It feels to me like the arguments to stay in on these fronts are along the lines of 'the EU has lots of positive laws around democracy and human rights, and if we left our Government would never sign up to these ideas on their own.' That seems a bit negative, maybe out of the EU our government would take responsibility for adopting many of the 'good' things the EU has enacted, and if not political pressure could bring forward such changes.
Not much going for the 'in' camp at the moment. I'm pro-Europe and pro-immigration, but at this point I am definitely not feeling pro-EU.
Maybe he thought that his main reasons for staying in (e.g. the big businesses who fund his party want to stay in, his desire for political power, his love of turning up at EU get togethers to affirm his own position on the global stage etc.. ) won't really inspire voters, so he's sat back and thought- 'what do those normal people out there care about? Oh yeah, I remember, they hate immigrants and they hate immigrants claiming benefits. I'll go over there and negotiate some deal that makes it look like I'm sorting that out. Then the bloody idiots will vote to stay in.'
The funny thing is that in trying to out together this 'red herring' strategy; he has just walked into a situation which for many will just reaffirm their concerns about the EU. We're watching lots of career politicians get together on their expenses paid three course meal lifestyle, arguing about things they will never agree on, and Cam is going to have to come back and report that most of what he said we 'must' have secured for him to support us staying in, he can't get agreement on, and the stuff he has got agreement on is massively watered down and won't actually be formally confirmed for months and months. He's backed himself in to a corner- even if nothing is agreed he is going to have to come back and tell us it's a massive success.
I'm sure he'll put a spin on it but funnily enough the first people he will have to treat as idiots and BS his way in to convincing them he's suddenly made the EU deal perfect for us will be his own party. I wonder if they'll swallow it.
The benefits thing is odd, as I understand it Cam is trying to negotiate an 'emergency brake' whereby a country in financial crisis where the benefits that country pays to non-native EU citizens has got to such a high amount it is a major factor in that financial crisis (i.e. the benefits being paid are part of the cause of the 'emergency'). Well, I'm not sure we are in an economic emergency (I keep hearing that we're the 5th biggest economy in the world and we are one of the worlds richest), and whilst I haven't seen any figures I would have thought these benefits are relative small fry in the bigger picture. So if he does negotiate such a measure, I really can't see how we would be eligible to activate it. Maybe it would be more suited to a country like Greece which is in real financial trouble.
Most of the talk seems to be around big businesses telling us they want to stay in because they will make more money, and about immigration and benefits. The first point won't pull at many people's heart strings given the constant stories in the press about corrupt practices and tax dodging from pretty much are every major company. On the second two points- if you do really have a problem them I'm assuming you would vote 'out' as this will have the greatest impact, if you are ambivalent or pro-immigration, Cam making this deal won't be a determining factor.
The bigger issues such as democracy, human rights etc haven't seemed to get much airtime. These issues could push people one way or the other. It feels to me like the arguments to stay in on these fronts are along the lines of 'the EU has lots of positive laws around democracy and human rights, and if we left our Government would never sign up to these ideas on their own.' That seems a bit negative, maybe out of the EU our government would take responsibility for adopting many of the 'good' things the EU has enacted, and if not political pressure could bring forward such changes.
Not much going for the 'in' camp at the moment. I'm pro-Europe and pro-immigration, but at this point I am definitely not feeling pro-EU.
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