Europe: In or Out

[GT49er]

cameron's got no chance at all but if he does get something it will be something totally meaningless as the EU will most likely change it after the referendum anyway...

But whatever he gets - even if it's only 1% of tiddly-squat - it will be bigged up as a huge triumph as he tries to railroad us to an 'in' vote in June. Unfortunately, millions of British people will be taken in by the spin and believe him.

 

[brighton fella]

But whatever he gets - even if it's only 1% of tiddly-squat - it will be bigged up as a huge triumph as he tries to railroad us to an 'in' vote in June. Unfortunately, millions of British people will be taken in by the spin and believe him.

similar to how they were fooled in 75 and they still haven't learnt.

 

[GT49er]

similar to how they were fooled in 75 and they still haven't learnt.

Yes, I remember the dirty campaign in '75 too.

 

[Soulman]

My old man went and studied plastering for a year in Germany in the 60's. He spent about five years of his childhood living in Malaysia while my Grandfather was in the Police over there after the war.

Perhaps they were not among the people that i knew, i was talking from my experience, as you are of yours.

 

[5ways]

It's all well and good rolling with the change, but change becomes a problem when you have too many people and not enough jobs. In that case isn't it better to control your borders so you get a good medium where it works for everyone? Isn't it better to take highly skilled people who go on to earn good money who can make good contributions to the system instead of people ending up minimum wage jobs paying hardly any tax and then relying on the benefits system to top up the wages?

The wealth of this country is built on looking out to the world rather than looking inwards. So many of our good jobs, in car manufacturing, services, or the education industry depends on the easy flow of people and capital inwards. I read today that for every £1 in benefits EU migrants receive they pay £1.34 in taxes. In addition to this the UK will take highly skilled people from abroad and provide them an excellent place to do business, take the entrepreneurs visa for example.

 

[brighton fella]

Yes, I remember the dirty campaign in '75 too.

that alone tells you enough about how they operate when they knew full well where all this was heading but shamefully never addressed it to the public. dirty snide's..

 

[Surf's Up]

For me the issue is whether the EU is capable of changing or whether the vested interests of member states will always obstruct any attempt to modernise and improve the Union. To this end Cameron's initiative is fundamental to the future of the EU. I believe in the EU in principle but it was established in 1958 (I think) and the basic principles and modus operandi of the Union have remain unchanged and unchallenged since then. It desperately needs to modernise, to de-bureacratise, to become more capable of effective decision taking and to more accurately reflect the aspirations of member states in the 21st century. The UK's challenge, despite being relatively unsubstantial in terms of content, is the first attempt by a member state to say fundamental change is necessary. If this fails then the EU will have shown itself to be incapable of change and no longer fit for purpose. If agreement cannot be reached then I cannot see how the institution can continue and the current series of problems the EU is attempting to grapple with (monetary union, Schengen, refugees etc) will amplify and the union will become ever more splintered and disparate. So for me if there is no deal or if the deal is so watered down to be rendered meaningless then I will vote for leaving the Union.

 

[jgmcdee]

Does anyone? Part of the problem is that is the runnings of the EU and how these treaties are dreamt up are about as transparent as mud, highly complex (intentionally so I feel), and totally uncountable.

Whilst I don't have time to do hours and hours of research, I do take an interest, do more reading and watching than the average, and have genuinely tried to form a reasoned opinion over recent months.

For example I took the time to listen to a talk the former Italian Prime Minister Enrico Letta gave at the London School of Economics recently on the possibility of Brexit and the future of the EU more generally. It's out there on record in print and available as a podcast if you wish. Terrifying stuff if you ask me, he represents the European political class perfectly and he talks plainly about his view that that the idea of a nation state is coming to an end. The answer to Europe's problems is apparently a federal superstate. We need an EU Finance Minister and an end to national autonomy to save the Euro and safeguard the future of the European people. Complete fanaticism, all laid out openly.

These are the people we're dealing with here, who we're trying to negotiate with. Anyone think we'll be able to achieve anything through negotiation with these people? The more research I do and the more I hear from these people, the more opposed to them I have become.

Most on the left of the IN campaign either have no idea about this and as you accuse me, don't understand how Europe works, and are simply desperate to (perhaps understandably) appear on the opposite side to Farage. Or more worrying actually welcome the above scenario.

No they aren't. Letta is an Italian politician but holds no direct role in the EU and is not a member of the Italian parliament. He has, to my knowledge, nothing at all to do with the negotiations taking place today.

 

[beorhthelm]

I read today that for every £1 in benefits EU migrants receive they pay £1.34 in taxes.

the brave new world of EU mathematics, conjuring money from nothing.

 

[Gwylan]

I took the time to listen to a talk the former Italian Prime Minister Enrico Letta gave at the London School of Economics recently on the possibility of Brexit and the future of the EU more generally. It's out there on record in print and available as a podcast if you wish. Terrifying stuff if you ask me, he represents the European political class perfectly and he talks plainly about his view that that the idea of a nation state is coming to an end. The answer to Europe's problems is apparently a federal superstate. We need an EU Finance Minister and an end to national autonomy to save the Euro and safeguard the future of the European people. Complete fanaticism, all laid out openly.

Most on the left ...

But Letta is a conservative politician, why bring the left into it?

That's part of the problem with the debate on the EU, people want to make political points. Wondering Soton could have raised very valid objections to Letta's speech but had to put a political slant on it. There are many who consider themselves on the left who want out as well

 

[BadFish]

Perhaps they were not among the people that i knew, i was talking from my experience, as you are of yours.

My apologies I thought you said that your generation didn't study abroad.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

what imaginative ways would you offer as an alternative then ?

I've discussed this at length on here before. Can't be bothered again.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

My generation did not study abroad, they studied here and got apprenticeships here. I can not recall any of my school friends studying abroad.

Maybe not. But thousands and thousands of UK people currently are and have been over the past 10-15 years or so. I personally know quite a few.

 

[WonderingSoton]

No they aren't. Letta is an Italian politician but holds no direct role in the EU and is not a member of the Italian parliament. He has, to my knowledge, nothing at all to do with the negotiations taking place today.

A pedantic point, I meant Letta is of the mindset, the establishment that we are now dealing with, who perfectly articulated their goals and viewpoints having worked within that framework. Rather than being specifically the person we are negotiating with. Clearly Latta wouldn't have been able to give that talk, if he was still directly involved.

But Letta is a conservative politician, why bring the left into it?

That's part of the problem with the debate on the EU, people want to make political points. Wondering Soton could have raised very valid objections to Letta's speech but had to put a political slant on it. There are many who consider themselves on the left who want out as well

I absolutely agree that there are many valid arguments on the left for opting to leave, and I sign myself up as agreeing with many of them.

My point about some on the left was more a direct reply to Tubthumper and his accusation that I didn't understand what I was talking about.

 

[brighton fella]

For me the issue is whether the EU is capable of changing or whether the vested interests of member states will always obstruct any attempt to modernise and improve the Union. To this end Cameron's initiative is fundamental to the future of the EU. I believe in the EU in principle but it was established in 1958 (I think) and the basic principles and modus operandi of the Union have remain unchanged and unchallenged since then. It desperately needs to modernise, to de-bureacratise, to become more capable of effective decision taking and to more accurately reflect the aspirations of member states in the 21st century. The UK's challenge, despite being relatively unsubstantial in terms of content, is the first attempt by a member state to say fundamental change is necessary. If this fails then the EU will have shown itself to be incapable of change and no longer fit for purpose. If agreement cannot be reached then I cannot see how the institution can continue and the current series of problems the EU is attempting to grapple with (monetary union, Schengen, refugees etc) will amplify and the union will become ever more splintered and disparate. So for me if there is no deal or if the deal is so watered down to be rendered meaningless then I will vote for leaving the Union.

if they haven't got it right by now they never will. truth be known they've no intentions of reforming it and to suggest otherwise is being naive.

 

[Soulman]

Maybe not. But thousands and thousands of UK people currently are and have been over the past 10-15 years or so. I personally know quite a few.

Fair enough but what if we get out of the EU stops our youngsters from studying here like years before the past 10-15 years you mention. Seemed to work ok before.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

My point about some on the left was more a direct reply to Tubthumper and his accusation that I didn't understand what I was talking about.

But your earlier post suggests you do not fully understand how the EU, and the councils, MEPs and Commission operate.

 

[Soulman]

A pedantic point, I meant Letta is of the mindset, the establishment that we are now dealing with, who perfectly articulated their goals and viewpoints having worked within that framework. Rather than being specifically the person we are negotiating with. Clearly Latta wouldn't have been able to give that talk, if he was still directly involved.



I absolutely agree that there are many valid arguments on the left for opting to leave, and I sign myself up as agreeing with many of them.

My point about some on the left was more a direct reply to Tubthumper and his accusation that I didn't understand what I was talking about.

Tis often the way when your opinion differs from others, it is easy to just be dismissed by saying you do not know what you are talking about.

 

[5ways]

the brave new world of EU mathematics, conjuring money from nothing.

No. This is from UCL. https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-articles/1114/051114-economic-impact-EU-immigration

"The positive net fiscal contribution of recent immigrant cohorts (those arriving since 2000) from the A10 countries amounted to almost £5bn, while the net fiscal contributions of recent European immigrants from the rest of the EU totalled £15bn. Recent non-European immigrants’ net contribution was likewise positive, at about £5bn. Over the same period, the net fiscal contribution of native UK born was negative, amounting to almost £617bn."

The value of the education of immigrants in the UK labour market who arrived since 2000 and that has been paid for in the immigrants’ origin countries amounts to £6.8bn over the period between 2000 and 2011. By contributing to ‘pure’ public goods (such as defence or basic research), immigrants arriving since 2000 have saved the UK taxpayer an additional £8.5bn over the same period.

damn immigrants, coming over here, subsidising us and saving us money.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

I thought the whole point of Cameron renegotiating our terms was to get full control of our borders from the EU, but what we might be getting instead is a ban new migrants claiming benefits for four years. Even if it goes through, it's going to take another 2-3 years after this to implement, it just proves further the level of bureaucracy that exists within this organisation, secondly it won't make the slightest bit of difference.