Europe: In or Out

[Soulman]

I like how you think about the future of the West and then at the same time want to weaken the West through Brexit.

So you believe if there was a war the UK would be weaker out of the EU. Seemed strong enough in 1939-1945, non EU countries like Aus, Canada, USA etc.
I think we would still have the backing of EU countries as well. So no weakening as far as i can see on that count.

 

[brighton fella]

too many sheep
regards
DR

to ,many sheep plumping for the status quo, if that dont loose it for us then vote rigging will....i pray not.but you know what the establishment is capable of.

 

[looney]

The problem with the Europhile scaremongering is we have a template for life outside the EU. What things were like before we joined the EU. A lot better.

 

[5ways]

So you believe if there was a war the UK would be weaker out of the EU. Seemed strong enough in 1939-1945, non EU countries like Aus, Canada, USA etc.
I think we would still have the backing of EU countries as well. So no weakening as far as i can see on that count.

Not quite what I mean. Taking the West as a whole Brexit would weaken the West politically most of all, and secondly economically. It may actually lead to closer EU defence integration.

 

[5ways]

The problem with the Europhile scaremongering is we have a template for life outside the EU. What things were like before we joined the EU. A lot better.

A staggering weakness of the Out campaign is that you cannot tell the public what will happen when we leave. In offers stability and certainty.

 

[5ways]

Thanks it's a special skill I have.

Seriously though please explain (with the use of facts if at all possible) how a strong independent UK would 'weaken the west'.

If the UK were to leave the EU it would be the first time it has happened. It would be the first reverse of post-War European integration. This is a hammer blow to the European project which has sought to elevate what unites us and diminish what divides us. This is the project which has prevented war in the most combustible and blood-drenched region in human history. The aim was to make ourselves reliant on each other and in doing so make it too costly and too self-defeating to go to war with each other again.

Brexit kicks at the foundation of this idea. The EU doesn't really know how to go into reverse and could unravel entirely if Britain leaves by choice. Moreover the UK is a major European power and leaving puts more power in the hands of Germany, this will lead to more resentment etc etc This is exactly what the enemies of the West want; Putin, who hates the idea of a united Europe and Islamic extremists. This is not even to mention the economic damage.

Also as you have mentioned the percentage of EU as global GDP is in decline, the power of individual European states is in decline. Alternatives to democracy exist and are powerful. We cannot take our values for granted, the world is becoming less Eurocentric and liberalism is not universal.

 

[Hampster Gull]

I do hope the EU negotiators and leaders dont play hard ball on what is being asked, i can see a real kick back if they make a meal of this. An out vote is possible at this rate

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

A staggering weakness of the Out campaign is that you cannot tell the public what will happen when we leave. In offers stability and certainty.

more immigration and less control of our country FACT
regards
DR

 

[The Rivet]

If the UK were to leave the EU it would be the first time it has happened. It would be the first reverse of post-War European integration. This is a hammer blow to the European project which has sought to elevate what unites us and diminish what divides us. This is the project which has prevented war in the most combustible and blood-drenched region in human history. The aim was to make ourselves reliant on each other and in doing so make it too costly and too self-defeating to go to war with each other again.

Brexit kicks at the foundation of this idea. The EU doesn't really know how to go into reverse and could unravel entirely if Britain leaves by choice. Moreover the UK is a major European power and leaving puts more power in the hands of Germany, this will lead to more resentment etc etc This is exactly what the enemies of the West want; Putin, who hates the idea of a united Europe and Islamic extremists. This is not even to mention the economic damage.

Also as you have mentioned the percentage of EU as global GDP is in decline, the power of individual European states is in decline. Alternatives to democracy exist and are powerful. We cannot take our values for granted, the world is becoming less Eurocentric and liberalism is not universal.

We never joined what is now the EU, we joined an EEC but, were lied to and sold out by our politicians starting with Ted Heath (may he rest in perpetual turmoil). Before that we did pretty well on our own for millennia (give or take a bump 'n' grind or two) and by the way peace reigned because of the UN not the EU!

 

[The Rivet]

A staggering weakness of the Out campaign is that you cannot tell the public what will happen when we leave. In offers stability and certainty.

Of course it does, fragmenting agreements about migrants, Schengen shot to hell, Fiscal economy going down the toilet, books never signed off with auditors. A significant amount of Europeans in total disagreement with their governments and the left leaning politics they espouse. Some stability and security indeed! Ridiculous.

 

[Hampster Gull]

We never joined what is now the EU, we joined an EEC but, were lied to and sold out by our politicians starting with Ted Heath (may he rest in perpetual turmoil). Before that we did pretty well on our own for millennia (give or take a bump 'n' grind or two) and by the way peace reigned because of the UN not the EU!

Dont forget Gordon Brown who signed away powers and didnt have the bottle to line up for the photo. Shameless

 

[5ways]

Of course it does, fragmenting agreements about migrants, Schengen shot to hell, Fiscal economy going down the toilet, books never signed off with auditors. A significant amount of Europeans in total disagreement with their governments and the left leaning politics they espouse. Some stability and security indeed! Ridiculous.

All these problems don't go away if we leave the EU. They probably get worse. Why not try to resolve this issues (as much as they can be) in a way we would like? We can't immunise ourselves from the challenges Europe faces, but we have a choice about whether we help solve them.

 

[The Rivet]

All these problems don't go away if we leave the EU. They probably get worse. Why not try to resolve this issues (as much as they can be) in a way we would like? We can't immunise ourselves from the challenges Europe faces, but we have a choice about whether we help solve them.

'Probably', 'Could', 'May', 'Potentially'. I am so tired of this. Facts are the important issue. Fact: UK in the EU or 2nd tier member will still be the worlds 5th largest economy and a nuclear power. You think the EU wouldn't welcome our co-operation when we 'leave'?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

'Probably', 'Could', 'May', 'Potentially'. I am so tired of this. Facts are the important issue. Fact: UK in the EU or 2nd tier member will still be the worlds 5th largest economy and a nuclear power. You think the EU wouldn't welcome our co-operation when we 'leave'?

What do you think? And is it a "fact"?

 

[brighton fella]

A staggering weakness of the Out campaign is that you cannot tell the public what will happen when we leave. In offers stability and certainty.

by staying in offers us stability ive heard some sh*te but this takes the biscuit..
by staying in offers us certainty...yes indeed mate.. the certainty of more immigrants and a declining NHS. that'l do for now.

 

[The Rivet]

What do you think? And is it a "fact"?

What I think is that our opinion will be valid and listened to as it is now. And also like it is now probably mostly ignored. It is a fact that we are a powerful European economy and until Corbyn gets his way a nuclear one too. So, I didn't quite understand your point or your desire perhaps to obfuscate and entice me into a duel of facts or assumption. Thank you for the invite but I respectfully decline.

 

[5ways]

'Probably', 'Could', 'May', 'Potentially'. I am so tired of this. Facts are the important issue. Fact: UK in the EU or 2nd tier member will still be the worlds 5th largest economy and a nuclear power. You think the EU wouldn't welcome our co-operation when we 'leave'?

Man i'm dropping facts all the time. The percentage of UK biz with Europe, the number of jobs dependent on Europe, the size of UK economy compared to EU and so on. For a fact the UK will have to leave Europol, for a fact the UK's friends and allies want us to stay in Europe.

When Cameron lays out his final agreement with the EU Commission I will have more facts on hand. I can point to really existing economic facts because it is based on reality right now. The out campaign cannot say for a fact what will happen to the UK economy and economic growth when we leave. All the available data indicates economic contraction on both sides of the channel. I'm waiting for Out facts based on evidence, I have none.

 

[The Rivet]

Man i'm dropping facts all the time. The percentage of UK biz with Europe, the number of jobs dependent on Europe, the size of UK economy compared to EU and so on. For a fact the UK will have to leave Europol, for a fact the UK's friends and allies want us to stay in Europe.

When Cameron lays out his final agreement with the EU Commission I will have more facts on hand. I can point to really existing economic facts because it is based on reality right now. The out campaign cannot say for a fact what will happen to the UK economy and economic growth when we leave. All the available data indicates economic contraction on both sides of the channel. I'm waiting for Out facts based on evidence, I have none.

Your dropping something for sure.

 

[5ways]

Your dropping something for sure.

Dropping (economic) science like Galileo dropped the orange

 

[Hampster Gull]

It would be nice to have a positive IN campaign. Bit negative at the moment