Europe: In or Out

[Soulman]

Soulman I salute you! Fantastic arguments against very determined opponents. Well Done.

Thanks. I just get peeved when the figures are disputed in haste just because they come from Farage. We saw last night that the question from a member of the audience on immigration was only answered by Farage, the others dodged the figures and the question.
People are free to vote IN, they have their opinions, but as seen in the last few weeks that lies and scaremongering are being used to sway this very important issue.

If people are happy to have immigration of more than the population of Brighton and Hove YEARLY, are happy to pay 55M a day to an unelected body in the middle of Europe that dictates our rules, plus many other instances.....then fair play vote in. But don't moan about roads, school places, jobs, income, nhs etc, and most of all lack of properties for those that can not afford to get on the ladder or pay absorbent prices to rent.
We can trade in Europe and there is a big wide world we are doing more trade with.

 

[jgmcdee]

Soulman I salute you! Fantastic arguments against very determined opponents. Well Done.

It's a cut 'n' paste job, and argument isn't exactly strong. It goes:

Here's a figure that is much less than that which Farage quoted.

Here's another that's also much less than Farage quoted, but it's different.

We know that the EU budget increases over time.

So perhaps the number Farage quoted is close to being right after all.

 

[jgmcdee]

If people are happy to have immigration of more than the population of Brighton and Hove YEARLY

Immigration in to the UK from outside the EU has consistently exceeded Cameron's stated target for total immigration. He has absolute control over it, and net immigration from outside the EU to the UK has been higher than that from the EU every year since 2010 for which we have records (up to 2014). Why do you think that leaving the EU will allow Cameron to meet his target?

are happy to pay 55M a day

You keep using that number even though it has been shown to be incorrect due to taking no account whatsoever of money coming back to the UK from the EU.

don't moan about roads, school places, jobs, income, nhs etc, and most of all lack of properties for those that can not afford to get on the ladder or pay absorbent prices to rent.

Why not? Very little of this has to do with the EU, and far more with the current (and previous) UK governments. Are you suggesting that all of the above, or indeed any of the above, will be fixed if we leave the EU? And if so, how?

 

[Gwylan]

It's a cut 'n' paste job, and argument isn't exactly strong. It goes:

Here's a figure that is much less than that which Farage quoted.

Here's another that's also much less than Farage quoted, but it's different.

We know that the EU budget increases over time.

So perhaps the number Farage quoted is close to being right after all.

Well exactly. In fact, the only complete, up-to-date figure that Soulman quoted (from the Treasury) was actually less than mine.

His argument seems to be: there are lots of different figures bandied about so Farage's are as good as anyone else's (even though they're twice as much as most of the others)

And that's precisely my point. I'm an Outer as well but I feel that it does the cause a disservice to pluck figures out of the air like that and gives plenty of ammunition to the other side. Let's concentrate on more solid ground - the lack of democracy, the red tape, the control over petty regulations, the byzantine and costly structure, the madhouse agricultural policy - and not make up things

 

[Soulman]

Immigration in to the UK from outside the EU has consistently exceeded Cameron's stated target for total immigration. He has absolute control over it, and net immigration from outside the EU to the UK has been higher than that from the EU every year since 2010 for which we have records (up to 2014). Why do you think that leaving the EU will allow Cameron to meet his target?



You keep using that number even though it has been shown to be incorrect due to taking no account whatsoever of money coming back to the UK from the EU.



Why not? Very little of this has to do with the EU, and far more with the current (and previous) UK governments. Are you suggesting that all of the above, or indeed any of the above, will be fixed if we leave the EU? And if so, how?

The rebate to the UK was taken into account
"Also every year the Treasury prepares a White Paper on European Union finances. The results of the latest exercise were published last November. It lists gross payments to the EU of £15,746 million, to be offset by the UK REBATE of £3,110 million and public sector receipts from the EU of £4,168 million, and an implied "net contribution to the EU Budget" of £8,468 million."

I believe letting in a controlled amount of immigration will not put the massive strain on our services and infrastructure and housing.
Where will these 330,000 a year live......where will they go to school, doctors, will there not be more traffic on roads and trains.
Please don't quote that many immigrants work in the NHS, we KNOW, but the service would not need so many if immigration bigger than the population of Brighton and Hove was not coming in every year.

 

[jgmcdee]

The rebate to the UK was taken into account
"Also every year the Treasury prepares a White Paper on European Union finances. The results of the latest exercise were published last November. It lists gross payments to the EU of £15,746 million, to be offset by the UK REBATE of £3,110 million and public sector receipts from the EU of £4,168 million, and an implied "net contribution to the EU Budget" of £8,468 million."

So you're saying that a number of about £23m a day, rather than £55m a day, is more realistic? If so then why do you continue to quote the latter?

I believe letting in a controlled amount of immigration will not put the massive strain on our services and infrastructure and housing.
Where will these 330,000 a year live......where will they go to school, doctors, will there not be more traffic on roads and trains.
Please don't quote that many immigrants work in the NHS, we KNOW, but the service would not need so many if immigration bigger than the population of Brighton and Hove was not coming in every year.

in 2014 197,000 of the net 320,000 immigrants came from outside of the EU. The government was fully able to turn them away. So why didn't they, if immigrants are causing all these problems you are listing?

 

[GT49er]

What about the expats ?

"If the UK votes to leave in the EU referendum, two million British citizens could possibly lose their residency, employment and pension rights overnight – but no one is talking about it

What a complete load of bollocks! British pensioners will continue to draw their British pensions, and whatever occupational pensions they might have. And there was never any trouble travelling around Europe - well, Western Europe anyway - with a British passport in the years before Edward Heath traded in British sovereignty for a free yacht.

It is also bollocks to say no-one is talking about it. The scaremongerers already are, and will continue to do so. It's called the 'In' campaign - didn't you realise?

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Immigration in to the UK from outside the EU has consistently exceeded Cameron's stated target for total immigration. He has absolute control over it, and net immigration from outside the EU to the UK has been higher than that from the EU every year since 2010 for which we have records (up to 2014). Why do you think that leaving the EU will allow Cameron to meet his target?

I agree with your underlying point that Cameron is good on rhetoric/deception but poor on action.The government has completely failed in reducing immigration to their stated aim, tens of thousands. If we vote to leave then one of if not the biggest factor will be immigration, any government who then presides over continuing mass immigration will have no excuses or place to hide and will likely face electoral oblivion if they allow it to continue.

You keep using that number even though it has been shown to be incorrect due to taking no account whatsoever of money coming back to the UK from the EU.

The numbers are substantial quibbling over the exact amount isn't particularly important.What is the figure you think is accurate?

Why not? Very little of this has to do with the EU, and far more with the current (and previous) UK governments. Are you suggesting that all of the above, or indeed any of the above, will be fixed if we leave the EU? And if so, how?

Large scale immigration much of it from the EU has had a significant effect on job availability, rates of pay for the lowest earners, housing, demands for public services even the costs of translation services to name but a few. You may be right in apportioning some blame to the current and previous governments in allowing this to occur eg Labour not setting up transitional controls to restrict eastern European migration in 2004 but once again a vote to leave would make it impossible for this status quo to continue.

Are you happy for ongoing mass migration to continue, if yes why, if not how do we control it if we remain in the EU?

 

[Soulman]

So you're saying that a number of about £23m a day, rather than £55m a day, is more realistic? If so then why do you continue to quote the latter?



in 2014 197,000 of the net 320,000 immigrants came from outside of the EU. The government was fully able to turn them away. So why didn't they, if immigrants are causing all these problems you are listing?

"On the face of it, however, none of the 2012 figures support Farage's £55 million a day claim. But that is to forget that we do now have a great deal of official information about 2013. According to the ONS, total debits on current transfers to the EU28 rose once more last year, to £22,628 million, equivalent to no less than £62 million a day."

Actually as you are quoting 2014 and not 2015, the figures were
641,000 people immigrated to the UK in 2014, a statistically significant increase from 526,000 in 2013. There were statistically significant increases for immigration of EU (non-British) citizens (up 67,000 to 268,000) and non-EU citizens (up 42,000 to 290,000). Immigration of British citizens increased by 7,000 to 83,000, but this was not statistically significant.
Remember that 330,000 was the net amount after taking into consideration emigration.

 

[pastafarian]

So you're saying that a number of about £23m a day, rather than £55m a day, is more realistic? If so then why do you continue to quote the latter?

£23 million a day?
£55 million a day?
£63 million a day?

Pick a number,it matters not.
£whatever millions a day it happens to be its still an astonishing amount of money per day that would be better spent in this country,for its citizens.

£1 a day is too much to be a part of this undemocratic gravy train.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

Anyone who points out any potential disadvantage in leaving the EU is always, always 'scaremongering'.

I'm sure there is a drinking game in there somewhere

A fair bit of if and buts and scaremongering among the IN campaign..

scaremongering

Lets clear a couple of things up so you dont need to scaremonger again on these issues.

People are free to vote IN, they have their opinions, but as seen in the last few weeks that lies and scaremongering are being used to sway this very important issue.

It is also bollocks to say no-one is talking about it. The scaremongerers already are, and will continue to do so.

 

[GT49er]

Glad you've seen the light, mate. Welcome to the 'Outs'.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

even when drunk, I shall remain an IN

 

[GT49er]

even when drunk, I shall remain an IN

Probably the best (and only) cogent argument for staying in.

 

[nicko31]

£23 million a day?
£55 million a day?
£63 million a day?

Pick a number,it matters not.
£whatever millions a day it happens to be its still an astonishing amount of money per day that would be better spent in this country,for its citizens.

£1 a day is too much to be a part of this undemocratic gravy train.

Most of what we would save in leaving European we would need to reinvest to get get the same back home. If we want to save money there are bigger fish to fry...

 

[Hampster Gull]

I want to know where all the tax payers momey, ie ours, is going! Yet again the Auditors cannot sign off the EU accounts. The EU needs to be more accountable

 

[cunning fergus]

Even if we were to exit and things remained exactly the same, I'd still prefer to have things the same and be part of a Union of states than be outside of it.

There is a intangible benefit of knowing that security among European states is "locked in" with a Union, effectively an insurance policy of peace and co-operation. Some people take it for granted that we'll have exactly the same level of security with a Brexit and that doesn't make any sense to me.

How do you measure something intangible? Nation states have had treaties before they have not prevented war.........arguably they have stoked it.

That is not to dismiss the period of peace we have experienced since WW2 but that is not down to the EU.

With the EU pressing for expansion to the borders of Russia and Syria/Iran you cannot seriously argue that such a policy guarantees security. Further as the EU seeks to consolidate, in particular with the EZ the loss of sovereignty and its consequences inside some states may well be a cause that destabilises previously suppressed groups.........Catalonia being a case in point.

No doubt the pro EU argument is to develop an EU wide army navy etc. I can't see myself where the benefit of that is........but I know some people can't wait for it.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

How do you measure something intangible?

Not always easy, and not an exact science, but there are ways to do this. Ordinal categorical modelling is worth Googe-ing....and we all know how much you like to Google.

 

[cunning fergus]

Before my time...

And there's the point.

You didn't experience the debate between the pro euro lot and those who wanted to keep the pound.

People like Clegg, Blair and Brown (yes he did) argued for joining the euro for exactly the same reasons for staying in the EU.

These people have been proved wrong, the euro has created more problems than it solved, and what is worse the solution to these problems has yet to begin. This will involve those countries ceding fiscal sovereignty to the ECB. The political implications of this have yet to take place........we have had a snapshot in Greece and Cyprus though and both were devastating in their own way for the citizens of those states.

The Germans will have to agree to fiscal transfers to poorer EU states, this is not allowed under the constitution of the Bundesbank, and whilst I have no doubt the EU politicians can boil sugar it's not guaranteed that the German people will wear it, and yet they are the country that has benefitted most.

I said previously, the reason the older cohorts are more anti EU is that essentially they have experienced the lies and deceit for years. Being told by pro EU politicians that there will be no 2 speed Europe for example, and yet that is now the solution to a problem the same politicians have caused.

You can't guarantee stability or wealth by staying in no more than I can guarantee it by coming out, however the people of this country have a far greater chance of applying their political will within a sovereign UK than the undemocratic behemoth that is the EU.

With respect to your impassioned (and articulate) views you have to understand that youthful energy is usually not a substitute for mature experience.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

With respect to your impassioned (and articulate) views you have to understand that youthful energy is usually not a substitute for mature experience.

do you mean your ability to cut and paste something from the Internet? Im sure the kids also know how to do this.